The Goat Pen

And it's funny how you keep referring to regular season stats. Not only is it moronic to suggest that regular season stats are somehow irrelevant, but I've also posted the side-by-side playoff stats that show very little difference between Brady and Manning. Brady has the edge in some categories, Manning has the edge in others. They certainly don't show Brady with some imaginary superiority -- and certainly not anything that outweighs Manning's total statistical superiority over Brady (when you include ALL games).

All you have is Patriot playoff wins vs. Colt wins. And, as everyone knows, TEAMS win football games, not individuals. I'll keep repeating it for you, since you still don't seem to want to accept it.

"TEAMS win football games, not individuals."

That's not true, all you need is Manning...

sardis wrote:"TEAMS win football games, not individuals."

That's not true, all you need is Manning...

A great QB can make a big difference on an otherwise bad team. Before this season I never would have believed any QB could make such a huge difference. But I have to accept reality.

Likewise, it's nice to be able to look at how the Pats played during Brady's missing season, so we can get an idea of just how much of a factor he is and what his team would be like with another QB.

I don't buy the lack of mentoring argument either, Peyton mentored Tee and Tee won a NC.

Heh...it's funny how there always seems to be an example that calls certain points into question. That's why you have to look at all of the facts. When you do that, there's no question that Manning > Brady. In fact, you could make a decent argument that Brees > Brady.

That's not taking anything away from Brady. He's been a very good QB. And the Pats have been a very successful TEAM during his career.

It's just silly to try to make an argument that he is somehow better than Peyton.

Bradshaw > Marino

BigRedMan wrote:Bradshaw > Marino

...according to Rickart logic, yes.

dave_rickart wrote:i stopped reading puterbac's post as soon as he mentioned Tebow.

good grief, Tebow has nothing to do with a discussion about Brady being better than Peyton, or defending why Brady has developed a reputation for clutch play in the playoffs...

Sure it does depending on how you reacted to Tebow during the run.

The detractors were claiming it was all the defense and prater, yet tebow got them in position to attempt the kicks.

If you were slamming him, yet praising brady for getting in position to attempt FG's then its hypocritical.

And as I've said numerous times is Brady didnt' kick the FG's. He got them into position to kick them.

Just as Peyton did in two playoff games (some of you loved one and dones), yet you slam Peyton for doing exactly what you praise Brady for. Only difference is Brady's kicker made them and Manning's did not.

manning 398 tds and 199 picks in 13 years
brady 300 tds and 115picks in 10 years

brady > manning 3 to 1 in playoff games head to head
brady 3 superbowls manning 1 and brady with a decent chance for another this year
brady twice as many playoff wins 20-10

belicheck 4 out of 5 losing seasons 41 and 59 until he found brady then winner ever since

only thing manning does is pass for a lot more yards 54K to 39K in 3 more seasons then brady (throwing out both of their injured years) brady will close that gap

brady has a much better arm then manning throws a much better pass. manning can read a defense better/does many of the little things to get an advantage better thenbrady but manning forces too many passes especially in big situations hence almost double the picks brady has

manning playes most games in a dome
brady plays most games in the elements

this last decade you have to give it to brady.
but if eli comes through then Manning(s)>>>>>brady

Its not double.

Its 15.3 to 11.5 a year.

Its 2.7% to 2.2% int percentage

"belicheck 4 out of 5 losing seasons 41 and 59 until he found brady then winner ever since"

That's one way to look at it. Or you could say that Belicheck took over a Cleveland Browns team that had finished with a 3-13 record the year before (not as bad as the Colts without Manning, but pitiful by almost any other standard) and in 4 seasons, turned them into a playoff team. They did fall off in '95, Belicheck's last year as head coach. But I think most experts at the time blamed that on Art Modell's announcement that the team would move to Baltimore at the end of the season.

So let's not try to make it sound as if there is no evidence to suggest that Belicheck was a good coach before Tom Brady came along. And remember that Belicheck's results were similar with Matt Cassel at QB. We should never forget that.

Belichek sucked in Cleveland.

"manning 398 tds and 199 picks in 13 years
brady 300 tds and 115picks in 10 years"

Brady's fewer picks is impressive. On the one hand, you can say that Brady takes better care of the ball. OTOH, Peyton has passed for 100 more TDs and 140 football fields worth of yardage more than Tom. That's an awful lot of offensive production in exchange for some the extra INTs. It's a trade-off that is difficult to quantify. That's why you look at all the stats, not just INTs. Career passer rating is a good way to compare them. In the last two seasons (including this one that Manning sat out) Brady has taken a small lead in overall career passer rating. But it's close. And their playoff passer rating is even closer. Brady slightly edges Peyton in that category, but it's so close that a bad outing by Brady this weekend will give the lead back to Peyton.

Jungle Rat wrote:Belichek sucked in Cleveland.

Let's be clear. Everything about Ohio sucks. But it is a fact that Belicheck took over a Browns team that had finished with a 3-13 record the year before and turned them into a playoff team in 4 seasons.

"only thing manning does is pass for a lot more yards 54K to 39K in 3 more seasons then brady (throwing out both of their injured years) brady will close that gap"

2 more seasons, actually. And passing yards are nothing to sneeze at -- especially when you're talking endzone-to-endzone 140 times. That's pure offensive production. And that's not the only thing Manning has over Brady. There is also completions and TD passes. Pretty important stats for a QB.

"brady has a much better arm then manning throws a much better pass. manning can read a defense better/does many of the little things to get an advantage better then brady but manning forces too many passes especially in big situations hence almost double the picks brady has"

Manning has not had the running game or defense to rely on that Brady has throughout most of their careers. So I'm sure he feels more pressure to do it all himself. That is probably the biggest single reason for the INTs that he throws. He knows that if he doesn't do it, no one else on the team will. See this season for proof that his feelings in that regard are well-founded.

"manning playes most games in a dome
brady plays most games in the elements"

I would be willing to bet that Manning's stats outside of a dome are pretty damned good.

"this last decade you have to give it to brady."

No, I don't. I agree that Brady has been better the past few seasons than he was early in his career. Of course, that flies in the face of Rickart logic, since he hasn't won a SB during that time.

I've been doing some checking on Manning's playoff stats and he has definitely had some stinkers over the years, no doubt. But not all of his sub-par performances have cost his team wins. I guess you could say that he did just enough to win in those games -- at least that's one way to look at it. And they have lost some games despite good performances by Peyton.

The main thing I was interested in is the oft-repeated sentiment that Peyton has "choked" in big games and thrown INTs at key moments that have ended his team's chance to move on in the playoffs. This is probably most often cited as the reason that Brady > Manning.

So, I checked and it turns out that Manning did NOT throw an INT in 5 of the Colts' 10 playoff losses. I thought that was interesting, because even I have allowed myself to assume that number would be higher. So in half of the losses, he did not throw an INT. In the other 5 losses, he threw a total of 10 INTs. But a whopping 6 of those were in his first 2 playoff games. And those were, admittedly, horrible performances for him. In the other 3 losses, he had 973 passing yards and threw only 4 INTs. So I would say that the "choke" label and the idea that he has cost his team most of their playoff losses by throwing INTs is a bit overstated, to say the least.

What is NOT overstated is the performance of the rest of his team in those 5 losses. The Colts rushing offense averaged only 66 yards per game and scored only 2 TDs TOTAL in the 5 games. The Colts defense allowed opponents to score almost 30 points per game. Kind of puts some of the criticism of Manning into perspective, IMO.

Take a breath gramps, the vein in your forehead is getting bigger.

The truth shall set you free.

sounds like a list of regular-season stuff, then a biased/subjective/erroneous analysis of postseason stuff.

wake me up when Peyton gets voted unanimous MVP...