Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by Professor Tiger » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:13 am

Are you going to address the issue of "evil is evil" as it relates to seemingly evil deeds done by insane people (which could actually lead to a somewhat interesting discussion)
I think both evil and insanity are a continuum. Evil ranges from the extremely minor (e.g. driving 5 mph over the speed limit) to the extreme (e.g. Hitler and Stalin). BTW, we are all evil, at least a little bit, including me.

Likewise insane ranges from extremely minor (fear of heights) to extreme (e.g. severe schizophrenia). And for the record, we are all insane, at least a little bit, including me.

Some people, like the POS shooter in Charleston commit heinous and evil acts. And yes, most of them have some degree of mental illness. But I believe we are all still responsible for our evil actions, even when we have some degree of mental illness. If I were on a jury, and the murderer tried to claim he was not guilty because he was depressed because his father left him as a boy, or his mother weaned him too early, or girlfriend dumped him, I'd be even more inclined to throw the book at him, not less.

The only exception is that very rare case when the defendant's mental illness is so extreme and so severe that he truly can't tell the difference between right and wrong. They think, for example, that they are shooting laser beams at invading aliens from space. Only a tiny percentage of killers fall into that category. And even in that rare case, the mentally ill person needs to be locked up forever, and just wearing a hospital gown instead of an orange jumpsuit. Society needs to be protected by crazy killers as much as not-so-crazy killers.
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:20 am

So when you said "Mental illness seems to be the common denominator on most of the mass murderers. I suspect that will be the case here," what you really meant was that maybe these killers are just a little bit crazy (depressed b/c their father hit them, etc), but not really schizophrenic crazy?

Also, do you really consider driving 5 mph over the speed limit to be evil?
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by Professor Tiger » Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:26 am

hedge wrote:So when you said "Mental illness seems to be the common denominator on most of the mass murderers. I suspect that will be the case here," what you really meant was that maybe these killers are just a little bit crazy (depressed b/c their father hit them, etc), but not really schizophrenic crazy?
Yes. They may have some degree of real mental illness (substance abuse, depression, PTSD), but they still knew right from wrong, and they damn sure knew shooting innocent people in a church is profoundly wrong. Fry him.
Also, do you really consider driving 5 mph over the speed limit to be evil?
Yes, but only to a microscopic degree.
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:27 am

I'm glad I don't think like you or else I'd be feeling guilty all the time. But I guess that's kinda the goal and purpose of that kind of program...
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by Jungle Rat » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:23 am

Your mom feels guilty every day that you were born.

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by sardis » Fri Jun 26, 2015 11:32 am

Very good idea by Peggy Noonan. If anyone deserves a peace prize in this country its the relatives of the slain who spoke of forgiveness to the perpetrator, and by doing so, disarmed a whole group of confederate flag supporters.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/two-miracle ... 1435274388

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by Johnette's Daddy » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:22 am

http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/2014 ... rong/33537

Unfortunately for the rest of us who claim to follow Jesus, fundamentalism tends to dominate the popular consciousness as the “true”version of Christianity. Progressive Christianity, an alternative to fundamentalism, often gets dismissed by its critics as anti-patriotic, socialist, morally subversive, and insufficiently Biblical. Such dismissals mischaracterize progressive Christianity in appalling ways, failing to see how progressive Christianity takes Jesus more seriously than its critics do.

Here’s a list of popular charges leveled against progressive Christianity — charges that, in many people’s minds, have ceased to be controversial. Christian fundamentalism has successfully dominated the conversation about the nature and purpose of Christianity to the extent that these charges are viewed, especially among many Christians, as self-evidently true. But they’re wrong.

1. Progressive Christianity actively seeks to make America a less Christian nation.

America is not now, nor has it ever been a Christian nation — a point even most evangelical figureheads concede.

Progressive Christians have long held the conviction that the whole Christian-America-thing is actually anti-Christian. Christianity has an implicit anti-nationalist bent. Jesus actively resisted the nationalist aspirations of his followers, which made him a disappointment to them — and ultimately cost him his life (initially!).

The thought, then, that the very nationalism Jesus walked away from in his own time should characterize the common life of his modern American followers is the height of anti-Christian presumption. Jesus didn’t look to ascend a Roman throne. Were he incarnated today, would he want the White House?

2. Progressive Christianity’s emphasis on social justice isn’t Christian — it’s Marxist.

The fundamentalist belief that “social justice” is warmed-over Marxism is intellectually lazy. If you can read the gospels and come away believing that Jesus cared only about people’s souls, you’re more cognitively nimble than I am.

The concern for just and equitable systems that tend to the physical and social needs of people occupies a great deal of Jesus’time as he wanders around the Judean outback. Like the prophets before him, Jesus saves his ire and his disappointment for those whose primary concern is their own spiritual empowerment (see, for example, the Pharisaic “woes” in Matthew 23 and the rich young man in Mark 10:17–31).

In fundamentalism’s emphasis on the “personal relationship with Jesus,”the “heart”occupies the foreground at the expense of the rest of God’s creative handiwork. In this view, my primary obligations are to myself and my own happiness (which conveniently fits with the core ideals of our consumer society). If I can help some other people along the way, that’s gravy. However, I have a responsibility to get my own celestial bus pass stamped first.

The author of 1 John says, “Those who say, ‘I love God,’and hate their brothers or sisters, are liars; for those who do not love a brother or sister whom they have seen, cannot love God whom they have not seen” (4:20).

3. Progressive Christianity supports obviously anti-Christian political agendas like same sex marriage.

I heard a story once about the progressive Christian activist Tony Campolo. (Whether it’s true or not, I can’t say. If it’s not true, though, it should be.) Campolo was speaking at a conference when he was asked about his views on abortion. He demurred, preferring to stick to the topic at hand. The person persisted, asking twice more.

Campolo said: “You’ve asked me three times. What do I think about abortion? I think it’s an issue dreamed up by rich Christians to distract themselves from the fact that they drive Mercedes Benzes. Because whereas there are over 2,000 verses in the Bible that talk about people’s relationship to money, there isn’t a single one that deals with abortion.”

The same thing can be said about same-gender marriage, a modern issue with which the Bible seems equally unconcerned, or at least unaware. That’s a whole different post.

Fundamentalism, despite its claims about taking the Bible seriously, has an uncanny ability to be distracted from the central issues with which the Bible concerns itself, choosing instead to dwell on peripheral issues — many of which are embarrassingly preoccupied with what other people do with their genitalia.

4. Progressive Christianity rejects the Bible.

The summary indictment of Progressive Christianity is that we don’t take the Bible seriously.

What I find so galling in this charge is the implication that holding progressive Christian positions is an accommodation to culture — a favoring of secular or modern culture over the Bible. On the contrary: whatever Progressive positions I hold, I hold not in spite of the Bible, but because of it.

My progressive beliefs are an embrace of the gospel I find pervading the scriptures. Progressive Christianity actually takes the Bible more seriously than its fundamentalist critics do. Christian fundamentalism emphasizes a “commonsense” or “plain” reading of scripture is sufficient — which usually boils the Bible down to a story about me and how I can avoid.going to hell.

So what can progressive Christians do about all this?

For starters, progressive Christians should quit letting Christian fundamentalism be the de facto voice of Christianity.

Progressive Christians should quit being cowed by charges of Marxism. The most damning criticism of a follower of Jesus is not, “You’re a socialist!”but rather, “I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me” (Matthew 25:42-43).

Progressive Christians should embrace their love of the Bible, not as a repository of theological and ritual laws, but as the narration of God’s continued pursuit of humanity through the establishment of God’s reign of justice and peace.

Progressive Christians should articulate that reign for a world threatening to tear itself apart due to injustice and violence.

In this endeavor, progressive Christians must be humble. But we can no longer be timid.
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by Johnette's Daddy » Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:28 am

For those who wish to click: http://www.patheos.com/Topics/2014-Reli ... stian.html

Patheos' series on Progressive Christianity and The Bible.
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by sardis » Mon Aug 03, 2015 1:35 pm

1. Progressive Christianity actively seeks to make America a less Christian nation.

Christ desires a nation to become Christian, not through politics or legislation, but by the heart conversion of its citizens. America was a Christian nation, not because of its Constitution, but the fact that a strong majority of its inhabitants were of the Christian faith.

2. Progressive Christianity’s emphasis on social justice isn’t Christian — it’s Marxist.

Caring for the poor and underprivileged is not Marxism. Using the government to forcibly apply redistribution is. This is where you and your coherts are inconsistent. In point 1, above, you say that Christians should resist "national aspirations", yet when it comes to "social justice", Christians should use nationalism as a means to an end. It just tells me that you are cherry picking at what issues Christians should politically influence and what issues they should not. Helping the poor and widows in Acts was done through the church, not the government.

I will say that Christian churches today do not do enough to help the underprivileged. They used to, you had hospitals for the poor set up by Christian denominations, etc. Government took over that role from the churches and taxed away resources otherwise available to be given.

3. Progressive Christianity supports obviously anti-Christian political agendas like same sex marriage.

To say that the Bible is "unconcerned" about same-sex marriage is ludicrous. It may not be a main issue, but homosexuality is definitely an issue it speaks against. Even liberal theologians who are pro gay marriage acknowledge the Bible's stand on the issue, they just differ on how the church should address it.

4. Progressive Christianity rejects the Bible.

He is not even debating here. this is just you are wrong, we are right with no mention of why we are right.

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:59 pm

"To say that the Bible is "unconcerned" about same-sex marriage is ludicrous. It may not be a main issue, but homosexuality is definitely an issue it speaks against."

My question is, why don't christians who seem to be so obsessed with the gay issue, which is only mentioned a few times in the bible, care nothing about any of the other ridiculous strictures that the bible also mentions only in passing? If you can easily ignore the "don't eat meat on Friday" (or any of the other things along those lines), why be so obsessed about homosexuality?
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:01 pm

Here are 19 of those biblical restrictions that are routinely ignored. Seriously, if it's in the bible and you believe in the bible, how can you simply and completely ignore all of these and yet still be obsessed with homosexuality?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/omgitsanf/19-th ... .aoD7x8oEl
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:03 pm

I want someone's ass blistered in the middle of Thanksgiving Square.

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by sardis » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:35 pm

The article would be relevant if we were arguing for Judaism.

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:39 pm

How many times is homosexuality mentioned in the new testament?
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by Professor Tiger » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:10 pm

Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9–10).

For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due. (Romans 1:26-27)

For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine... (1 Tim 1:10)
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:22 pm

Funny how you don't see many religious types getting so obsessed about adulterers, drunkards, "the greedy", etc, as they do about homos. Do you have any theory as to why that is the case?
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:27 pm

Can't quite make out what's going on in that second passage. "Gave them up unto." Is it saying god turned them into homos b/c of some previous transgression or that god gave up on them b/c they were homos? Either way, it doesn't seem like a terribly strong statement against homosexuality. There's not even any punishment mentioned. Nor in the third passage...
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Mon Aug 03, 2015 9:29 pm

At any rate, 3 whole mentions of homosexuality in the new testament, and only one of them laying out any kind of metaphysical punishment. And yet christians have decided to make this an issue they're willing to go to the mattresses for?
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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by sardis » Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:53 am

hedge wrote:Funny how you don't see many religious types getting so obsessed about adulterers, drunkards, "the greedy", etc, as they do about homos. Do you have any theory as to why that is the case?
Reason is that the masses generally agree that adultery, drunkenness, and greed are morally and Biblically wrong. Homosexuality, right now, is being accepted as not immoral and argued that it is ok, Biblically. When society is in error, scholars have to be more vocal on that particular issue.

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Re: Prof Tiger & Sardis "All Things Considered" Theology Hut

Post by hedge » Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:17 am

I don't think that "the masses" giving lip service to drunkenness and adultery, etc., as being biblically wrong is anything close to the same thing as the moral outrage we see in some quarters over homosexuality. For that matter, divorce is considered biblically wrong too, isn't it? And yet half the people that get married end up getting divorced, and nobody seems to mind at all. Certainly you don't see many people trying to outlaw it or say that divorced people shouldn't be allowed to remarry (multiple times, even), as they are trying to say homos shouldn't be allowed to get married, although there seems to be just as much or more biblical precedent for such a opinion (i.e., that married people shouldn't be allowed to get divorced and then remarry). Why do you think that is?
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