The Goat Pen

Here's what I don't get about your argument Hack. You say Brady had better players around him right? So basically you are saying Harrison, Faulk, Freeny, Mathis, Sanders etc. were hacks. I would be interested to see the number of Pats & Colts voted to the Pro Bowl in each season these two played. But Im not fucking doing it. My internet is down till Wednesday and Im stuck with my droid. Interesting question though.

Sure got quiet in here. Fucking facts!

dave_rickart wrote:Brady's team won seven fewer games and missed the playoffs, the year he wasn't on the field.

again, i gave you examples, of Brady stepping up in the biggest moments in the sport -- clock winding down, in the Super Bowl, having to score, and delivering each time.

that's why SI dubbed him the clutch performer of his generation.

as opposed to a guy who consistently is one-n-done in the playoffs....

You keep citing Brady getting the Pats in FG position to win two super bowls. During tebow's run did you give credit to tebow for getting them in position for Prater to do his thing or were roundly criticizing tebow saying prater deserves the credit?

I only ask because Brady didn't kick the FG's. He got them in position for the kick as he should. However so did Manning in two of the one and done's you site. In 2000 he drove the Colts down the field and vanderjagt missed the FG to win. In 2005 he drove the colts down for a near chip shot for vanderjagt to tie and send it to OT and he missed it again.

In both cases he did exactly what you tout Brady for, but his kicker missed where Brady's made it.

I post complete statistical comparisons and I get back the same old dishonest, misleading, cherry-picked talking points that I have refuted time and time again.

The facts still remain: The Pats have been the better team, but Peyton is the better QB. I've posted the stats and I've made my case and you bozos have been woefully unable to offer anything other than the fact that the Pats have more playoff wins -- which, as I said, only proves that they have had the better team.

I don't know that there is a direct metric that can definitively assign a title of 'best QB'. As with most things in life, it is subjective. With an NFL QB you could go with Super Bowls, total wins, playoff wins, total yardage, passing yardage, TDs to INTs or a combo of two or more of the the things I've mentioned.

To me, thus is like arguing which is a better cut of meat: t-bone or ribeye, and I still can't believe that it gas gone on for so long.

A pox on all parties.

There are a lot of factors you could consider. I think the more factors you consider, the better picture you get. Some people like to limit their criteria down to 1 or 2 factors that serve their argument and attempt to dismiss or ignore the facts that aren't as convenient.

Here's a question for you...

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Tom Brady is the best QB in the NFL -- even better than Peyton Manning. How come its been 7 years since he won a SB? He's having the best seasons of his career. If winning SBs is the ultimate criteria for being considered a great QB, then why is it that all of Brady's SB rings were earned when he was playing, arguably, the worst football of his career? Is he better now than he was 10 years ago? I think he and everyone else would say there's no question that he is. So why no SBs?

I hate to keep bringing up such obvious points, but I feel that someone has to.

I don't think Super Bowls are a good measure. I also don't really believe total yards are, either.

Personally, I would choose a healthy Peyton over a healthy Brady, but that's just a gut feeling. The 'who is better' talk is barroom banter without a conclusive answer. And it's not just with QBs. Who was a better LBer? Cornelius Bennett or Derrick Thomas? Who is a better receiver, Hareem Nicks or Jordy Nelson?

Bah. It's opinion. Just opinion.

Funny how Hack ignores my posts. Game over. Hell, even the dorks at ESPN admitted they would take Eli over Peyton at this point.

I don't necessarily think that the guy who throws for the most yards is the best QB, either. That's particularly true when it happens once or twice in a career. But when there is a pattern of consistency, combined with so many other factors that point to an obvious conclusion, then I think its hard to refute.

For instance, before Peyton Manning came along, a 4,000 yard passing season was something of a rarity. Joe Namath was the first one to do it. And he managed it only once, in 1967. Others followed -- some big names and some not-so-big. But it was still a pretty rare feat. And it was still considered to be a huge accomplishment.

Dan Marino broke the mold with six 4,000 yard seasons in his illustrious career. Before him, Dan Fouts was the only guy to have done it three times. Warren Moon came along and did it 4 times. Steve Young did it twice. Only 13 other QBs, before Peyton, had EVER thrown for more than 4,000 yards in a single season. And they had each only managed to do it once. John Elway was one of the guys who did it once. Joe Montana never did it. Neither did Terry Bradshaw. In fact, a lot of guys who are considered to be among the greatest to ever play the QB position never did it in their careers -- way too many to name. Put it this way: think of some of the greatest QB names to ever play the game and chances are they never passed for 4,000 yards in a single season.

Think about that when you consider that Peyton Manning has AVERAGED more than 4,000 yards passing per season over the course of his career. Put that together with his high career passer rating, his 46 career come-from-behind victories and his SB ring and it's pretty compelling evidence.


4,000 yard passing seasons are becoming a lot more commonplace nowadays. But no one is even close to Peyton. And he started the trend. He has become a transformative figure in the game. That makes him more than just a good QB. And that makes him better than Tom Brady.

Gotta love AA's disdain for the discourse, yet a few posts later he weighs in...

It was an attempt to end this argument. In vain? No doubt.

Eli has the advantage of having a terrific running game and great defense right now AND they are hitting on all pistons right now. Eli has never been the focus of the offense. EVER. He has always been surrounded with the right pieces and has a pretty good coach.

Brady and the Pats cheat. Plain and simple. They have been caught and slapped on the wrist for it.

Okay all kidding aside, Brady has the better coaching staff. Just look how they almost reinvent themself every year. This year, it was the attack of the TEs. Bellidick gets 110% production from the players he has by putting them in position to be successful. He doesn't ask them to do anything they can't do effectively. Period. He buids his game plans with that in mind and has had good success.

As far as Brady's outing against Denver...well...Denver sucks. Nuff said.

Peyton has always been the focus of the offense and that at times can be a problem. If he is coming back for his last two years, I hope and pray the Colts take a cultural change and start pounding the ball on the ground and be a run first pass offense. It will help protect Manning, setup the playaction where he is deadly, AND set a foundation for the next QB. If this is all done now, they have a legit shot of continued success.

You have now been learned. Know it. Love it. Accept. Ring the bell son, school's over.

next up, Hack will bombard us with regular-season stats proving LeBron James is better than Michael Jordan.

six rings be damned!

It appears there are Brady cockgobblers...and there are Manning cockgobblers...

Just get over it.

you can call it coaching all you want

belicheck was 36-44 with a 5-11 record his last year at cleveland as head coach and a 5-11 record with new england in 2001 before brady became starter in 2001

then he got brady who made belisuck look like a genius and hitched his wagon to ever since. 41-55 until he named brady a starter

bradys success is because of brady not those around him

Well that and the fact they started cheating.

Peyton is getting a new coach.

So Irsay has cleaned house. Who's next? Hmmmmmm

Just know these dates:

March 3rd - Season ticket money is due for season ticket holders

March 8th - Manning is due his roster bonus.

You make the connection.

April 26th - Colts draft a new starting quarterback