The Goat Pen

Hahaha. No, I have 11, but if they are made illegal and the Feds have tracked me down from here (or more likely credit card receipts for ammo and hunting club dues), I can guarantee that I will have just sold them. All.

I am not one to be non-compliant.

It would be interesting to see how gun owners would react if they all of a sudden began to be treated like drug users have been treated, well, forever...

A well rolled Joint, being necessary to the awesomeness of a good concert, the right of the people to smoke dope, shall not be infringed.

yeah but we need to ban assault joints. you get to many hits too quick and each toke is a lot more lethal then a hand rolled joint

The Volcano.

Own one.

I suspect there are more than a few gun owners who pontificate long and loud about "personal rights" who are completely against drugs or at the very least are indifferent to whether or not people who use drugs can get sent to prison and have all their shit stolen by the government just b/c they possess drugs. That's what bugs me about those types, not the fact that they have (and should have, IMO) the right to own guns, but that they act like it's the "rights" part of it that they really care about and not just the fact that they just personally like owning a gun, for whatever reason (personal protection, hunting, or just that they feel some sense of awe and power by being able to go to a shooting range and make this machine go bang when they pull the trigger). They don't really care about "personal rights" in general, they only care about their "right" to do one particular thing. It's kinda like (and this is very generalized) how black people, who if anyone should understand what it means to be oppressed it should be them, are in general very anti gay rights. I don't understand it...

Could it be that those rights are enshrined in the constitution?

I'm for some drugs being legalized. Not so much on others. Just as I'm for some weapons being restricted or illegal. I wonder if it will take an amendment to get pot legalized?

I was reading an interview with the economist Krugman and he was saying in this country , with where we are right now - a stat like this is ridiculous - its all based on politics and not desire.

For example, he said - what if America had a threat -maybe an impending natural disaster that could be stopped with a massive works program like building 20 Hoover dams - America would rally behind this cause and we'd have full employment - and they'd generally be good paying jobs. 1.2 trillion in yearly spending is about 2 million jobs paying $60K a year and the peripheral employment - housing, auto, food , entertainment, health would account for another 4-6m jobs. You add 8 million jobs in the course of 18 months and our current problems are behind us for the immediate future. Then those peripheral jobs jumpstart another cycle of growth from supply chain, education, energy,etc.

so he asks why don't we just invest in a massive works program to repair and build infrastructure? His answer is that American today just isn't wired to work that way - that new deal politics are toxic in the mind of Americans , but we've grown to accept 1 in 2 Americans on the government dole.

With my political views, I'm staunchly against a huge government in terms of power and scope, but if we're spending 2-3 trillion each year, and I understand that a good portion of that is spoken for with entitlements and military, let's at least commit to spending on domestic policies that keep Americans working. That is real stimulus

"Could it be that those rights are enshrined in the constitution?"

Yes, for idiots like yourself it could be and is. But for people with an IQ over 80, it is understood that gun ownership was a controversial idea that the founders thought needed to be specifically encoded in the constitution. It never occurred to them that something as basic as a man wanting to get fucked up in whatever way he chose would ever be something that the government would possibly conceive of abridging, and they were correct for about a century and a half. Then everything went to hell...

with a massive works program like building 20 Hoover dams -


I do believe we've wasted the equivalent millions/billions on now rusting and idle wind mills.

hedge wrote:"Could it be that those rights are enshrined in the constitution?"

Yes, for idiots like yourself it could be and is. But for people with an IQ over 80, it is understood that gun ownership was a controversial idea that the founders thought needed to be specifically encoded in the constitution. It never occurred to them that something as basic as a man wanting to get fucked up in whatever way he chose would ever be something that the government would possibly conceive of abridging, and they were correct for about a century and a half. Then everything went to hell...

The crime/gun argument is a big strawman, but your drug/gun rights cant is off the charts banal.

Toemeesleather wrote: with a massive works program like building 20 Hoover dams -


I do believe we've wasted the equivalent millions/billions on now rusting and idle wind mills.

the goals were different - employment would be the priority here.

Oh well, that's different...like Solyndra....

hedge wrote:I suspect there are more than a few gun owners who pontificate long and loud about "personal rights" who are completely against drugs or at the very least are indifferent to whether or not people who use drugs can get sent to prison and have all their shit stolen by the government just b/c they possess drugs. That's what bugs me about those types, not the fact that they have (and should have, IMO) the right to own guns, but that they act like it's the "rights" part of it that they really care about and not just the fact that they just personally like owning a gun, for whatever reason (personal protection, hunting, or just that they feel some sense of awe and power by being able to go to a shooting range and make this machine go bang when they pull the trigger). They don't really care about "personal rights" in general, they only care about their "right" to do one particular thing. It's kinda like (and this is very generalized) how black people, who if anyone should understand what it means to be oppressed it should be them, are in general very anti gay rights. I don't understand it...

The belief behind ordinary people wanting the right to own a firearm is rooted in the protection of their accumulated personal wealth. People have guns because there are other envious people out there who sees what they have and want to steal their stuff. And the people who have stuff don't believe for one minute, that there will be a cop there to stop the would be thief, when they need them to be there.

Now, for those who want to keep illegal drus illegal but want to continue to have the right to acquire firearms (people like me) you are comparing apples and oranges. You seem to think this is all just a "personal freedom issue" and it isn't. Its a "responsibility" issue. If I am a firearm owner and I handle my firearms responsibly, the only people whose lives are threatened are those who would be willing to harm me, my family, or take my things from me. If no one tries to do any of those things, my complete bunker filled with firearms will remain unused with the exception of me taking my firearms to the shooting range to make sure they are in working order. And no one (other than myself and maybe my wife) would ever be able to access my bunker. Illegal drugs (on the other hand) are completely at odds with responsibility. If you snort coke, just one line of coke (at any moment) and you could have a heart attack and die. That is not acting in a responsible manner. And before you respond with "...yeah but no one else died when I did this, it is a victimless crime..." I am going to call bullshit on that. Hedge, all the people that love you and care about you are now victims. Because you were irresponsible you destroyed all the people who love and care for you. I can make this argument with heroin, crack, meth, pretty much any illegal drug that alters your behavior and if you keep taking it, it will eventually end your life. Pot is a little different. It is not going to end your life (and you and I could argue until we are blue in the face if it leads to harder drugs) but it is still irresponsible behavior. Smoking Pot routinely (the way someone might light up a cigarette) dampens your brain and affects your central nervous system to the point where your cognitive ability is harmed (perhaps perminantly.) Forget ever working a high paying professional job where you need to constantly think. You are not goign to be sharp enough to continue in any profession that requires quick, critical, thinking. So people like me (and other parents who want what is best for their children) want Pot to remain illegal because we do NOT want our children to have legal access to something that is higly addictive that will most certainly destroy their future earning power.

If I had things entirely my way, cigarettes (which kill 290,000 a year, including way too many of my family members) would be unlawful in this country. But I can't change that. I don't have 'the votes" to legislate away cigarettes. So I have to sit there and watch cigarettes kill those who are addicted. Right now I do have "the votes" to keep Pot illegal. I'm not giving that up....

Why would people who can sit around in free housing and getting free food want to have to dig ditches for essentially the same benefits?

"The crime/gun argument is a big strawman, but your drug/gun rights cant is off the charts banal."

"Off the charts banal" is an oxymoron. But since you are a complete moron, I'm not surprised that you could come up with that...

hedge wrote:Why would people who can sit around in free housing and getting free food want to have to dig ditches for essentially the same benefits?

now see...that's just what's wrong with America

"Now, for those who want to keep illegal drus illegal but want to continue to have the right to acquire firearms (people like me) you are comparing apples and oranges."

If you are any part of the equation, it's like comparing morons to idiots. Not a pleasant prospect, I'll admit, but there you have it...