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Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:52 pm
by Fifer
crotch wrote:Bluecat wrote:So crotch.........is Cal good enough for you now?
The jury is still out on Calipari.... Great recruiter and good coach. I'm waiting for him to become a great coach before I give the seal of approval. Check back with me in a couple of years.
Considering how you trashed Rich Brooks, the best football coach UK has had since Bear Bryant, I seriously doubt anyone will be asking you.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:05 pm
by Gator by God's Grace
Fifer wrote:Ooooo that picture brings back memories. Just to the right of that poster is the door to the mens locker room of the old Memorial Coliseum pool. Where I spent a good part of four years of my life.
that's where you rigged up your hidden camera, eh?
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:33 pm
by Jungle Rat
Somehow I thought about Metzger and how he'd react if he was in a store and found out UK beat UL. Or maybe Onion after one to many sponge bath requests from Corky.
[youtube]VbnEB9ntztY[/youtube]
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:45 pm
by Fifer
Gator by God's Grace wrote:Fifer wrote:Ooooo that picture brings back memories. Just to the right of that poster is the door to the mens locker room of the old Memorial Coliseum pool. Where I spent a good part of four years of my life.
that's where you rigged up your hidden camera, eh?
OK I get it, seriously I spent 4 in that pool on the UK swimming team.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:01 pm
by Saint
eCat wrote:Saint wrote:Bledsoe was a top 25 recruit so there was an expectation that he could be a lottery pick. playing on a team of great players at UK just enhanced that.
Harrelson was only under Cal for 2 seasons so I don't think he can take that much credit for him but him being on an NBA team probably says more about Cal's coaching ability than his lottery picks the last few years.
Cal's a great recruiter (mainly because of WWWes but I guess that's part of the game now) but he (and a lot of other NCAA coaches) are getting undue credit for turning players into NBA prospects. Many of those lottery picks would have been so out of HS if the NBA didn't change its rules so playing a year or 2 in college and still being a lottery pick doesn't mean your college coach is the key to an NBA guaranteed contract.
You want to go to a big-name college, play on TV a lot, maybe win a national championship? Go to UK, Carolina, KU or maybe UCLA and that could happen. But don't think that going to these schools is what is going to help you get into the NBA. In fact, if you're a 25-50 player, you might be better off going somewhere you could get more of a chance to shine instead of behind these top 10 guys the big programs are pulling in annually.
maybe what he is getting credit for is turning them into Kobe Bryants and not Kwame Browns. I have to believe that playing on a team that gets national exposure, plays in made for TV matchups and makes deep tourney runs is going to enhance your opportunities. It will be interesting to see where Shabazz Mohammed ends up going in the draft. He was the #1 consensus player before Noel reclassified and signed with UK. Now , before ever playing a game he is the #1 draft pick consensus, and Mohammed is going to have to prove he is playing on a west coast team at 11pm every night. To an NBA scout that won't make a difference but to a national audience it will.
Not sure what you're trying to say here since the jury's still out on whether his UK players will be Kobe or Kwame. The first group has done OK.
As far as playing at UK creating more NBA opportunities, there's no difference between UK and a handful of other teams. And NBA scouts aren't watching college games on TV to decide who to draft. So if you're saying that playing at UK gives kids a higher profile with fans around the country, you're right, but that has zero to do with their draft position.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:05 pm
by Bluecat
So Saint, you are saying that at this time last year, it was a lock that Davis/MKG go 1-2 in the draft no matter who they play for in their 1-and-done experience?
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:10 pm
by Saint
No, I'm saying that MKG, based on his status out of HS, was one in a group of players who could have gone 1-2. Nobody is a lock to go 1-2 and he could have very well gone No. 2 had he gone to several other schools. Davis was a little less regarded out of HS but his talent would have been evident no matter where he played.
Saying that a college coach or program turns top HS talent into lottery picks is like saying I had to eat at Golden Corral at lunch to take a shit by 4 p.m. it's going to happen no matter where or what I ate.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:11 pm
by crotch
Fifer wrote:crotch wrote:Bluecat wrote:So crotch.........is Cal good enough for you now?
The jury is still out on Calipari.... Great recruiter and good coach. I'm waiting for him to become a great coach before I give the seal of approval. Check back with me in a couple of years.
Considering how you trashed Rich Brooks, the best football coach UK has had since Bear Bryant, I seriously doubt anyone will be asking you.
Best since Bear Bryant?? Heh, you lack of football knowledge is showing bud. Ever hear of Fran Curci??? Yeah, I know he was as crooked as a barrel of fishooks, but by far was a better coach than Brooks. Brooks was average at best....just barely a notch above Joker...who he RECOMMENDED as his replacement if you remember.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:31 pm
by Bklyn
Making it deep into March Madness invariably raises your draft stock, just like disappointing showings in The Big Dance can dampen your prospects.
So, yes, playing for the UKs of the NCAA is a help. If you're Wally Szczerbiaking it on a small MAC school squad, you better be balling your ass off come late March.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:44 pm
by Saint
that's a chicken/egg question, Brooklyn. the guys playing at UK, UNC, KU, etc. are helping those teams more than getting career boosts, IMO. the guys like Sczerbiak might get a foot in the door because they're getting more exposure but NBA scouts are going on a lot more than that. I'd wager that an elite player will help his eventual NBA cause more at AAU tourneys before college than he will playing in the NCAA tourney. when you're talking about a lottery pick, it comes down to things like a player's work ethic, intelligence, projected ability to handle NBA competition and lifestyle more than how they played in college, no matter where they went.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:59 pm
by Bklyn
Of course, I'm speaking anecdotly (sp?). I haven't been around scouts in years. All I'm saying is that I've seen soooo many players, when being evaluated by "experts" leading up to the draft, dinged for their poor showing in the tournament. I've seen players dinged for their body language in tough tourney games that they lost, regardless of their box score. It seems to matter a lot to the evaluators how you performed in the biggest stage in their career (up to that point) and I've seen it (dinging) happen to guys playing for the UNCs of the world who were supposed to be the man coming out of AAU ball.
I think the increase in stock may be incremental for guys playing at the UNCs and UKs of the NCAA, but I think MKG's play in the tourney (which was not great, but he never checked out of a single game and played hard) moved him from a #4 or #5 pick to a #2. I think if UK went out at the Sixteen or earlier, no way he goes #2.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:07 pm
by Saint
The difference between No. 4 and No. 2 is pretty neglible. And Harrison Barnes, by virtue of his entire sophomore season, probably shouldn't have been in the top 10 but he has always been considered an extremely highly rated player. Kendall Marshall may have benefited from playing with other highly rated players at UNC but he still would have been a lottery pick had he gone to UK, Florida, UCLA, Duke or any other top 10 program. On the other hand, had Larry Drew not quit the team, Marshall might not have made it to the NBA at all.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:27 pm
by Bklyn
I'm always of the mindset that talent will make it to the NBA if prison doesn't get to them first.
Marshall (and I don't know the timeline, so forgive me if I'm wrong) would have transferred if he could not get any burn behind Drew (i.e. Drew did not leave early).
However, I'm not sure we're arguing different points here. Playing for UK, FLA, UCLA or Duke are all programs that give you a great chance at making it far into March. My thesis isn't the "play in the Eastern Time Zone" so you can have scouts love you. Mine is "play for a Top 10 team, so you can go far into March and raise your draft stock."
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:51 pm
by eCat
I read that Saban and Calipari both have the same number of first round draft picks ..or maybe it was lottery picks - I'm not sure I know the difference.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:53 pm
by Saint
Yeah but I wonder how much playing for a top 10 team really raises the draft stock of the kids who were top 25 recruits out of high school and continue to play that way as a freshman. The original argument is that Calipari recruits those elite kids who then play at UK according to the form they showed in HS and in AAU ball. So the credit for their high draft stock probably isn't so much that they played for him or at UK but that they were great to begin with. It's the same for other elite programs, although one could make the argument that playing at UNC hurt Harrison Barnes if we accept the theory that he would have gone No. 1 or 2 out of HS had he been allowed. There again, he probably would have done the same thing no matter where he went so a relatively shitty sophomore season by Barnes didn't really hurt his draft stock.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:54 pm
by Gator by God's Grace
eCat wrote:I read that Saban and Calipari both have the same number of first round draft picks ..or maybe it was lottery picks - I'm not sure I know the difference.
aint no lottery in the NFL, son....
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:20 pm
by hedge
"Ooooo that picture brings back memories. Just to the right of that poster is the door to the mens locker room of the old Memorial Coliseum pool. Where I spent a good part of four years of my life."
The way you said that (esp. the "Ooooo" at the beginning) makes it seem like you spent a good part of your four years getting assfucked in the men's locker room. And liking it. Not that there's anything wrong with that....
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:27 pm
by hedge
What about somebody like Kwame Brown or that Diop DeSanga dude? They were lottery picks out of high school and they sucked. Would they have really gotten better if they had gone to UK or UNC, or would they just have been exposed as frauds before some hapless NBA team wasted millions on them? I'm not sure. Now then, either of those guys (or any of the other busts like them) could probably go to some great college, get exposed as WAAAAAAYYY overrated, but hang in there for 4 years and end up getting drafted at the end of the first round or maybe the second round (a la Jorts or any number of big men at UNC, i.e., Scott Williams or Warren Martin, etc, although in fairness, none of those guys were highly rated out of high school), but why go thru all that rigamarole only to earn millions less? Could Cal or Roy or any college coach really turn Kwame Brown or Desanga Diop into a lottery pick? I ask you, who secured those leases? Ewing Oil. And who put up the money for the drilling? Ewing Oil. And who took the risk? Again, Ewing Oil. For you gentlemen, it's a sure thing...
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:12 am
by eCat
hedge wrote:What about somebody like Kwame Brown or that Diop DeSanga dude? They were lottery picks out of high school and they sucked. Would they have really gotten better if they had gone to UK or UNC, or would they just have been exposed as frauds before some hapless NBA team wasted millions on them? I'm not sure. Now then, either of those guys (or any of the other busts like them) could probably go to some great college, get exposed as WAAAAAAYYY overrated, but hang in there for 4 years and end up getting drafted at the end of the first round or maybe the second round (a la Jorts or any number of big men at UNC, i.e., Scott Williams or Warren Martin, etc, although in fairness, none of those guys were highly rated out of high school), but why go thru all that rigamarole only to earn millions less? Could Cal or Roy or any college coach really turn Kwame Brown or Desanga Diop into a lottery pick? I ask you, who secured those leases? Ewing Oil. And who put up the money for the drilling? Ewing Oil. And who took the risk? Again, Ewing Oil. For you gentlemen, it's a sure thing...
I think in a Kwame Brown example, he'd go to college and either learn a work ethic or end up looking so inconsistent that he would be advised to stay another year. Part of that coming out of high school thing is these kids are so ill equipped to deal with life as a professional they can't handle themselves off the court. I read a story about Kwame Brown not even knowing how to hang up a suit so he'd take it off and throw it in the corner, then when he needed to wear another one, he'd just go buy one. In that same article it said he lived off Popeyes chicken eating it at least once a day. A year of college at a program with a serious training regimen and career counseling would have addressed that sort of thing.Certainly a program that had connections to the NBA and sends kids off their regularly would be more apt at preparing them for what they are about to get into.
Re: Ostensibly Hoops
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:27 am
by DooKSucks
RIP, you cantankerous old fart.
[youtube]oNxLxTZHKM8[/youtube]