Florida State Seminoles

[hedge]

" That argument is simple: it doesn't matter that our candidate is a baffoon and doesn't know a damn thing about economics or the real world, what matters is that we don't think that any of the others are serious candidates and gosh.... look at our guy! That argument didn't help Dole in 1996, nor did it help McCain in 2008."

It worked fine for W in 2000 and 2004 (even though he got less votes than Gore in 2000)...

[innocentbystander]

I can appreciate that you wrote a long response but I'm not interested in the debate to the detail you want to entertain it.

Well that is too bad.

We're so far off in what we see there is no common ground.

Well that's because you are not (nor were you ever) a Republican. I don't care what you say you were. I know you weren't. We may have a big tent but not for the a-moral, go be a Democrat. If you can't understand the importance of morals in society and how they impact our Constitution and how we live with one another, there is nothing further for us to discuss regarding the GOP.

I tried.

[Bklyn]

That is the challenge of the GOP. They can rally behind a strong fiscal conservative but as soon as someone says "what is your position on abortion" or "will you attack Iran?" he has to play cat and mouse between what it takes to keep the base and what it takes to win the election. And then the base of GOP start yapping about the American work ethic and the downfall of American values when their guy loses.

Yep. I keep saying, the GOP will struggle getting over the hump in a national election until they solve that problem. Every candidate that can survive the Primary won't survive the general, unless the challenger is a total nincompoop.

The GOP would not even have Congress if it weren't for some really crafty gerrymandering (and a census that completed right before the GOP revolt of 2010...otherwise, the DEMs would have been the ones drawing districts to hold their power for the next decade). It's kind of interesting, to me, to watch some GOPers talk as if there aren't some fundamental issues with their party platform. 4 out of the last 5 elections they've lost the popular vote and they can not win the Electoral College anymore with the same strategies that got them there 10 to 20 years ago. I guess it'll take another national election cycle before they start to be honest with themselves. I hope it doesn't take that, but it's looking that way.

[Bklyn]

LOL @ the Democrats base are poor and uneducated.

How did the poorest and least educated states vote in the last election?

[eCat]

the answer to the GOP is straight up economics.

Put forth a plan that will revive the middle class - not with some hocus pocus bullshit about freeing up the rich but address specifically what you are going to do to create jobs and build the middle class. Romney couldn't do this. He said he was going to create millions of jobs - in some cases it was jobs that was going to be created anyways, in others it was that continued reliance on the "job creators" to do just that - with a hope and idea of change that they'd do something different than the last 10 years.

I would just groan when Romney would start that trickle down horseshit - no matter how much window dressing you put on it, its clear in today's climate that even if its true (which from what I've read its not), advocating a platform where making life easier for the wealthy and in turn they'll go out and hire your broke ass just doesn't play.

And people aren't looking for "gifts' as Romney is oft heard repeating but with the lack of any other real option, that is what they'll take.

Tax cuts for the wealthy or extended unemployment benefits for 72 months? The public is taking the unemployment benefits cause....oh...90% of America ain't wealthy.

Increased military spending or no caps on insurance benefit limits? Um..The public is taking no caps on insurance limits - unless I work for Lockheed.

The reality is the GOP doesn't have solutions other than big government. Matter of fact, the GOP and supporters like IB are perfectly OK with big government as long as they are in charge of it.

What they can't get thru their Fox New encased brain is they have squandered the faith the American public had in conservative values because people like IB are convinced they know whats best for everyone. Just read his last post to me. He can't separate the concept that I have individual morals that guide me that I don't need at the federal level. He is convinced his morality must be put upon this nation in order to keep us from turning in Somalia. This brand of conservatism is now a minority and each year more people abandon them like rats on a sinking ship. It *won't* be their demise , it already is their demise as a party. They are a party of exclusion. "We have a big tent but I don't agree with you - go be a democrat!"

yep - you win elections that way.

[innocentbystander]

LOL @ the Democrats base are poor and uneducated.

How did the poorest and least educated states vote in the last election?

Poor does not necessarily mean uneducated (and vice-versa.) And educated does not mean Republican. Allow me to quote my first wife again....

Most recently, Santorum assailed Obama for saying everyone should go to college by responding: "What a snob!"

No! No! No!

Santorum's response merely reinforces the insane liberal worldview that going to college is the preserve of our betters, a hoity-toity proof of social class, a desirable consumer product like a Louis Vuitton bag.

This isn't the '20s, when only the upper classes went to college. These days, every idiot who can scratch an "X" on his checkbook assumes hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt to make himself less employable by taking college courses in -- for example -- "Lady Gaga and the Sociology of Fame" (University of South Carolina, Columbia), "GaGa for Gaga: Sex, Gender and Identity" (University of Virginia), "Arguing With Judge Judy: Popular 'Logic' on TV Judge Shows" (University of California, Berkeley), "The Phallus" (Occidental College), "Zombies" (University of Baltimore), "Comics" (Oregon State University), "Harry Potter: Finding Your Patronus" (Oregon State University), and "Underwater Basket Weaving" (University of California at San Diego).

My fellow Americans, Meghan McCain has a bachelor's degree.

It's not snobbery that compels liberals to promote college for all; it's a scam to manufacture more Democratic voters, much like their immigration policies.

Is a Valley Girl who takes courses in Self-Esteem at Cal State Fresno (an actual course at an actual college) a finer class of person than a skilled plumber with approximately 1,000 times the earning capacity and social worth of the airhead?

No. But she is more likely to vote Democratic.

Encouraging everyone to go to college creates an all-new class of people entirely dependent on the government, which is to say: reliable Democratic voters.

...get it Bklyn? See how that works?

Hispanics are (generally) both poor AND uneducated, but it is because they are poor that they vote Democrat. They don't vote Democrat because they aren't educated.

[eCat]

is that post in quote for real?

"Encouraging everyone to go to college creates an all-new class of people entirely dependent on the government, which is to say: reliable Democratic voters. "

that can't be serious.

You do know the GOP was the party of intellectuals. The downfall of the GOP began when they started catering to the above ground swimming pool crowd who couldn't relate to William Buckley . That is how they ended up with Sara Palin as a serious candidate.

after reading what I just wrote, I guess I realize they are serious. Educated people probably do reject the GOP now.

[innocentbystander]

the answer to the GOP is straight up economics.

Put forth a plan that will revive the middle class - not with some hocus pocus bullshit about freeing up the rich but address specifically what you are going to do to create jobs and build the middle class. Romney couldn't do this. He said he was going to create millions of jobs - in some cases it was jobs that was going to be created anyways, in others it was that continued reliance on the "job creators" to do just that - with a hope and idea of change that they'd do something different than the last 10 years.

I would just groan when Romney would start that trickle down horseshit - no matter how much window dressing you put on it, its clear in today's climate that even if its true (which from what I've read its not), advocating a platform where making life easier for the wealthy and in turn they'll go out and hire your broke ass just doesn't play.

You are getting close to the area where I had my biggest complaint with Mitt ROmney. Would you like me to explain? I think you'll like my answer.

[quote="eCat"And people aren't looking for "gifts' as Romney is oft heard repeating but with the lack of any other real option, that is what they'll take.[/quote]

Of course they are! Everyone is trying to game the system to get their edge. It is what they do and it isn't MORAL.

[quote="eCat"Tax cuts for the wealthy or extended unemployment benefits for 72 months? The public is aking the unemployment benefits cause....oh...90% of America ain't wealthy.

Increased military spending or no caps on insurance benefit limits? Um..The public is taking no caps on insurance limits - unless I work for Lockheed.

The reality is the GOP doesn't have solutions other than big government. Matter of fact, the GOP and supporters like IB are perfectly OK with big government as long as they are in charge of it.[/quote]

Wrong.

I want to end....

Medicare

Medicaid

Social Security

Department of Education

Department of Energy

HUD

WIC

Welfare

NPR

Public Television

Federal Student Loan Programs

all of it, GONE, GOODBYE

The only government I want to keep"

Military (got to kill Islamic Fundamentalists)

Highways

Courts

Police & Fire

FBI & the Attorney General

Make the mayor's office volunteer along with the board of selectmen. No more "professional" state representatives. Pay 'em $100 each per year the way they do in New Hampshire.

[Bklyn]

Maybe Valley Girl is voting Democratic but it won't be because of social programs. It'll be because she's offended by the governments comments with regard to her uterus and the way she feels the GOP treats her gay friends.

You dumb it down too much thinking it's about poor people and uneducated.

[eCat]

no, I'm not convinced that people are looking for gifts from the government

What people are looking for is a government that is looking out for them, providing them with an environment of opportunity.

When someone is demanding health care from the government, its because health care is out of reach for the typical American - why is health care out of reach for the typical American? Because spiraling health care prices haven't kept up with workers wages.

Simple enough to understand. Where I differ from the Democrats is I put much if not all of the blame on our government for being involved in healthcare to begin with.

When people talk about the "needy" population of today, its easy to forget the era of the 60's. Yes, we made great strides in civil rights, but we also introduced a new era of government dependency. From Kennedy's war on poverty to Johnson's advancement of that idea with the Great Society.

Public housing, Medicare, Medicaid, The Older Americans Act, expanded food stamps, etc. Federal Aid to the poor increased by more than 3X the amount spent before.

IB, I don't know how old you are, you talk as if you are 60 years old but your frame of reference appears to be that you found your conservative religion in 1996.

This idea that Americans just want hands outs from the government fits neatly into the "personal responsibility" mantra espoused by Republicans (and Libertarians) but just disconnects them completely from the harsh reality that much of the reason Americans need handouts are caused by their failed policies.

Perhaps the greatest difference between LIbertarians and the GOP is that Libertarians don't blame the people for their plight, they blame the government.

[innocentbystander]

is that post in quote for real?

"Encouraging everyone to go to college creates an all-new class of people entirely dependent on the government, which is to say: reliable Democratic voters. "

that can't be serious.

Damn straight I'm serious. Damn straight Ann's serious. But a lot of what she is saying depends on the "education." Look at the list of degrees she offers. If you are on a pussy-wimpy, sensitive tract (like women's studies or liberal arts) then you will be working for government. If you buckled down and got a real education (STEM) then you'll be making money which means you don't need government to make you whole or give you a job. You'll be voting GOP.

You do know the GOP was the party of intellectuals. The downfall of the GOP began when they started catering to the above ground swimming pool crowd who couldn't relate to William Buckley . That is how they ended up with Sara Palin as a serious candidate.

Sarah Palin was never a serious candidate. She appealed to a very tiny percentage of the GOP base that was very LOUD in their support of her.

I never supported her. She was not a serious candidate.

after reading what I just wrote, I guess I realize they are serious. Educated people probably do reject the GOP now.[/quote]

[Bklyn]

I want to end....

Medicare

Medicaid

Social Security

Department of Education

Department of Energy

HUD

WIC

Welfare

NPR

Public Television

Federal Student Loan Programs

all of it, GONE, GOODBYE

Ending Medicare and Medicaid does not end the government payout. It will exascerbate it (unless you're for ending the Emergency Room mandate Reagan signed back in the 80s, too).

[eCat]

Sarah Palin was never a serious candidate. She appealed to a very tiny percentage of the GOP base that was very LOUD in their support of her.

I never supported her. She was not a serious candidate.

you should read that statement again.

If you wonder why the GOP can't win another presidential election, it should start with them not having serious candidates running.

Ron Paul stood for individual rights , limited government, fiscal responsibility and free trade over imperialism - and he was treated like a leper, meanwhile John McCain was considered the VP pick for John Kerry in 2004, and wanted Lieberman as his VP pick in 2008. In 2012, the GOP's candidate was a moderate (and I'm being kind) Governor of the most liberal state in the Union.

[innocentbystander]

Sarah Palin was never a serious candidate. She appealed to a very tiny percentage of the GOP base that was very LOUD in their support of her.

I never supported her. She was not a serious candidate.

you should read that statement again.

If you wonder why the GOP can't win another presidential election, it should start with them not having serious candidates running.

Ron Paul stood for individual rights , limited government, fiscal responsibility and free trade over imperialism - and he was treated like a leper, meanwhile John McCain was considered the VP pick for John Kerry in 2004, and wanted Lieberman as his VP pick in 2008. In 2012, the GOP's candidate was a moderate (and I'm being kind) Governor of the most liberal state in the Union.

Ron Paul is not a serious candidate either. That is because Ron Paul has divorced common sense from his understanding of the government of the United States and its conflict with Fundamental Islam. That disqualifies him.

Anyone who supports Ron Paul disavows the existance of Fundamental Islam as a threat to the United States.

[eCat]

Sarah Palin was never a serious candidate. She appealed to a very tiny percentage of the GOP base that was very LOUD in their support of her.

I never supported her. She was not a serious candidate.

you should read that statement again.

If you wonder why the GOP can't win another presidential election, it should start with them not having serious candidates running.

Ron Paul stood for individual rights , limited government, fiscal responsibility and free trade over imperialism - and he was treated like a leper, meanwhile John McCain was considered the VP pick for John Kerry in 2004, and wanted Lieberman as his VP pick in 2008. In 2012, the GOP's candidate was a moderate (and I'm being kind) Governor of the most liberal state in the Union.

Ron Paul is not a serious candidate either. That is because Ron Paul has divorced common sense from his understanding of the government of the United States and its conflict with Fundamental Islam. That disqualifies him.

Anyone who supports Ron Paul disavows the existance of Fundamental Islam as a threat to the United States.

no, anyone that supports Ron Paul understands why Islam is a threat to the United States. Big difference.

[innocentbystander]

Maybe Valley Girl is voting Democratic but it won't be because of social programs. It'll be because she's offended by the governments comments with regard to her uterus and the way she feels the GOP treats her gay friends.

That is why we need to end Women's Suffrage. If taking offense affects the way she votes, she should not be allowed to vote.

She votes like a woman, with her emotions/heart and not her brain.

[innocentbystander]

Ron Paul is not a serious candidate either. That is because Ron Paul has divorced common sense from his understanding of the government of the United States and its conflict with Fundamental Islam. That disqualifies him.

Anyone who supports Ron Paul disavows the existance of Fundamental Islam as a threat to the United States.

no, anyone that supports Ron Paul understands why Islam is a threat to the United States. Big difference.

wrong.

people that support Ron Paul disavow the very importance of Fundamental Islam because to acknowledge it means that we have to shape our foreign policy around something that is a "threat." They can't do that because to Ron Paul supporters, nothing that happens in the Middle East is any of our business. That is the ROOT of their ideology.

That is Ron Paul. End of story.

Ann Coulter said it best, she is with Ron Paul all the way on every single domestic policy inititiate he has. But his ignorance of foreign policy makes him a certifiable kook.

[Jungle Rat]

[eCat]

Ron Paul is not a serious candidate either. That is because Ron Paul has divorced common sense from his understanding of the government of the United States and its conflict with Fundamental Islam. That disqualifies him.

Anyone who supports Ron Paul disavows the existance of Fundamental Islam as a threat to the United States.

no, anyone that supports Ron Paul understands why Islam is a threat to the United States. Big difference.

wrong.

people that support Ron Paul disavow the very importance of Fundamental Islam because to acknowledge it means that we have to shape our foreign policy around something that is a "threat." They can't do that because to Ron Paul supporters, nothing that happens in the Middle East is any of our business. That is the ROOT of their ideology.

That is Ron Paul. End of story.

Ann Coulter said it best, she is with Ron Paul all the way on every single domestic policy inititiate he has. But his ignorance of foreign policy makes him a certifiable kook.

yes, Ann Coulter is the person I listen to in shaping my beliefs.

[hedge]

What is the over/under on how many times a week IB jacks off to Ann Coulter? I've got to put it at 5 minimum, but only that low b/c you know his perverse ass surfs porn more than anyone else on this board, so he's bound to come across stuff that just can't wait. Fucking sick motherfucker...