The Goat Pen

That's the way it's been for decades. GOP are gangsters (no matter how much they want to call "Chicago Politics" on Obama) and DEMs are pussies.

The demographics are going against the GOP, so instead of evolving, they simply try to shrink the electorate. I know AA doesn't believe it, but once can be an anomaly. Twice can be a coincidence. Three or more? That starts to smell like a conspiracy, to me. Ohio. Pennsy. NC. Virginia. Georgia. Tell me, how many shady tactics have to happen before you agree that this is coordinated, even if not by some singular evil figure?

They can not fight for power in these ways on a national scale. Mitt is trying to get around it by doing 180s on positions he clearly stated in the Primaries and hoping he's not called on it enough to influence the 10-15% of the electorate who make their decisions on soundbites. It's not a bad strategy, honestly. It's giving him a chance. I just thought he had more integrity than that...then I realized he is from my industry. Integrity is not the highest virtue in my world and you rarely make it too high up the ladder if that is your guiding principal.

Bklyn wrote:That's the way it's been for decades. GOP are gangsters (no matter how much they want to call "Chicago Politics" on Obama) and DEMs are pussies.

The demographics are going against the GOP, so instead of evolving, they simply try to shrink the electorate.

Yeah, if you don't have positve ID, you don't get to vote. Simple as that.

If you aren't able to get some kind of government picture ID, then (as far as I'm concerned, and as far as any sane person should be concerned) you lack the most basic skills necessary to have the right to vote. Get an ID. Or get the fuck out of my country.

Bklyn wrote:Integrity is not the highest virtue in my world and you rarely make it too high up the ladder if that is your guiding principal.

Mitt Romney is a man of integrity. You've already made your mind up about him and I wont try and convince you otherwise, but you are wrong in your evaluation. That is all I'm going to say.

Anyone who dramatically changes their positions in this short of a window, on this myriad of topics, is not someone who places integrity paramount. It's placing winning paramount. As I look back, I see that consistency in Mitt. It doesn't even mean he'd be a bad president, depending on the circumstance. However, I would argue your evaluation is based on your own political predilections and not on facts of the situation. I was a Mitt guy in 2008 (as far as my GOP pick). I wasn't even an Obama guy in the beginning during that stretch, on the DEM side. That doesn't mean I'm totally impartial, I admit that. But, I don't have some blinder on for some political party at the expense of what I see in cold, hard facts.

IB wrote:If you aren't able to get some kind of government picture ID, then (as far as I'm concerned, and as far as any sane person should be concerned) you lack the most basic skills necessary to have the right to vote. Get an ID. Or get the fuck out of my country.

Couple of things here. Firstly, picture ID is not legally required (I think that is true in all states, definitely true in PA). You seem to be conflating things a bit. ID has been required for decades, but picture ID has not. Secondly, for many elderly people on a fixed income, who do not have cars, they find it very difficult to pay the $20 for a picture ID that they have to get from some bureaucratic office in a downtown they'll have to travel an hour plus, each way via public transportation, to get. Add that all in to a scenario where there is no study that concludes that this is a legitimate problem, then I think the photo issue is just another way to strike people from the rolls; it's the same as what occurred during Jim Crow.

I guess that's where I'm different. I look at it as this is those elderly and poor people's country, too, and I don't mind if they stay and also look to vote. It's probably the Christian in me.

man of integrity defining any politician is a tough sell

True, but I'm simply talking political integrity. I wanted to view Mitt as a pragmatist, back when he originally ran, as a former Conservative Governor from Mass. At this point, I don't know what Mitt's policies on choice, immigration, tax policy and education would be. He has made TOTALLY opposite points on his positions with regard to these topics in the last 11 months. It's just a proposition I can't go by on gut. All pols lie at some point, to earn some votes, but I don't even know what Mitt to grade him against if I had to. It's unfair to hold a man to his 1994 positions, in many circumstances. It's another to look the other way when cereal freshness lasts longer than his stated positions on major issues.

I don't see how anyone voting for Romney can have any faith in his positions.

They change for the circumstances. And yes, I do believe he is pragmatic, but its at the cost of ideaology.

How committed to paying the deficit, getting a balanced budget is Mitt going to be if we have an economic crash and the only tools at his disposal are stimulus spending?

How committed is Romney going to be to protecting our Mexican border if 20% of his voting block is Latino?

I'm not saying these aren't issues with Obama, but to define Romney as some oak in political discipline is pretty far from the truth.

"How committed to paying the deficit, getting a balanced budget is Mitt going to be if we have an economic crash and the only tools at his disposal are stimulus spending?"

Well, the current administration is doing that now and will continue to do so, so the downside is status quo.


"How committed is Romney going to be to protecting our Mexican border if 20% of his voting block is Latino?"

Probably better than the one who has more than 20% of his voting block Latino.

"Yeah, if you don't have positve ID, you don't get to vote. Simple as that."

I didn't have to show my ID when I voted. In fact, I started to pull it out and the lady told me she didn't need to see it. Just asked for my name and address, same as always...

I could actually see Romney being a republican Bill Clinton if he gets elected. I think he is pragmatic and he obviously knows what it means to compromise, as any repub politician in Massachusetts would have to do. Of course, he'll have alot more repub "support" as president of the whole nation than he did as governor of Mass., so maybe I'm just being optimistic about his willingness to work with the other side. In Mass., he didn't have a choice. As president, if he gets elected, it will be interesting to see whether he decides to govern the same way or if he just caves like most of the rest of them always seem to do...

hedge wrote:I could actually see Romney being a republican Bill Clinton if he gets elected. I think he is pragmatic and he obviously knows what it means to compromise, as any repub politician in Massachusetts would have to do. Of course, he'll have alot more repub "support" as president of the whole nation than he did as governor of Mass., so maybe I'm just being optimistic about his willingness to work with the other side. In Mass., he didn't have a choice. As president, if he gets elected, it will be interesting to see whether he decides to govern the same way or if he just caves like most of the rest of them always seem to do...

he has a real headache ahead of him with the uncompromising Tea Party folks though. I'm sure he already knows it.

I don't see Romney as a Bill Clinton, at all. Not in style or substance. Maybe you are arguing that their approaches to problems would be the same, but I find it hard to put my faith in that any longer when Mitt hasn't been able to show it to me. He's been running for 5 years and I'm still expected to go by what I hope to see. I can't do it, so I removed any possibility of voting for him this Summer.

I can't see a single thing Romney saying positively impacting the economy besides freeing up bank capital via regulation relief (Obamacare is going nowhere soon)...but that adds a level of risks I'm not comfortable with. That leaves me with the Supreme Court (which always keeps me nervous...although it seems Roberts is not the ideologue some thought he would be) and social issues. Nothing I've seen or heard makes me comfortable with Romney's positions (whatever they may be, politically).

Now, the local Republican Candidates/Tea Partiers/GOP Volunteers have been telling people they need to have ID's when they reach the polling places. Thankfully, there are plenty of people out there telling people that's false, but they're doing it.

Bklyn wrote:

IB wrote:If you aren't able to get some kind of government picture ID, then (as far as I'm concerned, and as far as any sane person should be concerned) you lack the most basic skills necessary to have the right to vote. Get an ID. Or get the fuck out of my country.

Couple of things here. Firstly, picture ID is not legally required (I think that is true in all states, definitely true in PA). You seem to be conflating things a bit. ID has been required for decades, but picture ID has not. Secondly, for many elderly people on a fixed income, who do not have cars, they find it very difficult to pay the $20 for a picture ID that they have to get from some bureaucratic office in a downtown they'll have to travel an hour plus, each way via public transportation, to get.

They find it difficult to pay $20 for a picture ID..... Get the fuck out of here.

For the first, your response was insane. $20 is not the deal breaker for the poorest of the poor in getting a picture ID. Procrastonation, competance, and criminality, is. A picture ID is meant to show a 3rd party that you are (with a picture) who you say you are. To not require it because of $20... well, if you can't come up with $20 for a picture ID, you don't get to vote. I don't care what the law says, the law is WRONG. Change the law. Everyone must get a picture ID to vote.

For the second, your response was wrong. Elderly have picture IDs. Criminals do not. If you are an illegal immigrant here working criminally, you might have a harder time getting a picture ID. I suppose you could raid people's trash cans looking for Social Security number information and find someone who could make you an illegal ID, but it going to cost much more than $20. Democrats do not mind criminals voting since they are going to vote for Democrats so OF COURSE they don't want picture ID laws. Everything else you might have to say on this matter, is moot.

Your reponse make no sense at all, not one bit. And don't start on the Christian part of you. I worship Christ as much as the most God fearing Bible thumper, but I do not want criminals deciding the fate of the world by voting in elections they have no business voting.

You have no business voting....

IB, I am not wrong. There is a plethora of information out there showing the demographics of elderly voters and their possession rates of photo ID. Would like me to post anything? I'm good at backing up my claims with verifiable facts, not simply "you're wrong" statements.

Obviously, your world is constituted of what you specifically see with your own eyes, in your own circle. That makes sense, the more I think about it.

However, regardless of your pronouncements of all of those who don't vote using picture ID, there are many elderly and poor people who do not drive and never had a license, nor a picture ID. It just is fact...and is the a key EXHIBIT used in THE COURT CASES to defend voters whose rights have been threatened due to this.

So again, if you really will take time to read, I'll take the time to find the necessary FACTS to support my statement. Otherwise, I'll let you wallow in your fiction and myopia.

how realistic is that criminals are lining up to vote? there isn't much upside in them standing in line for 30 minutes to cast a ballot

the whole idea that there are thousands of people that aren't eligible to vote are lining up to vote for Obama is just beyond the pale of reasonable thinking.

eCat wrote:reasonable thinking.

It's so obvious you're asking for too much on this one.

Never mind your name, just give us your number. Never mind your face, just show us your card.

Wait?! Criminals can't vote?

Oops

I was fixin to say...