The Goat Pen

"Drugs are death."

Please do some...

Alcohol and cigarettes are far worse on your health than pot.

innocentbystander wrote:

Professor Tiger wrote:The Founding Fathers were all Libertarians.

how many of their children did the founding fathers have to bury from heroin overdoses?

how many of other people's children did the founding father's have to financially support (all their adult lives) because of their drug addictions?

God governs like a Libertarian. He told Adam and Eve, "Don't eat the fruit of that tree," but He gave them free will, and allowed them to exercise it badly. The father of the Prodigal Son let his son wander off to a distant pagan land, knowing he'd wind up feeding pigs.

If God gives us the free will and the freedom to make bad choices, especially when they don't harm others, then the federal government should too.

Professor Tiger wrote:

innocentbystander wrote:

Professor Tiger wrote:The Founding Fathers were all Libertarians.

how many of their children did the founding fathers have to bury from heroin overdoses?

how many of other people's children did the founding father's have to financially support (all their adult lives) because of their drug addictions?

God governs like a Libertarian. He told Adam and Eve, "Don't eat the fruit of that tree," but He gave them free will, and allowed them to exercise it badly. The father of the Prodigal Son let his son wander off to a distant pagan land, knowing he'd wind up feeding pigs.

If God gives us the free will and the freedom to make bad choices, especially when they don't harm others, then the federal government should too.

but they do harm others

the challenge with this libertarian mindset is we live in a country with a safety net that people take into the equation when they tout this libertarian freedom idea. People touting drug legalization want to push for more drug treatment as opposed to prison. That isn't libertarian - no , real freedom is if you become a junkie then you die in the gutter with a needle in your arm, your children starve, your family is responsible for your debts, there is no bankruptcy, there is no welfare .

if you're going to go libertarian, you have to go all in on Libertarian

Drug treatment is WAAAY cheaper than prison.

Libertarianism is not monolithic. It comes in various shapes and sizes. I'm in favor of eliminating all sorts of governmental fraud, waste and abuse. I'm in favor of the federal government returning to its very limited Constitutional roles. But I also believe that one of the basic responsibilities of the federal government is to ensure its citizens don't starve in the streets. That responsibility is right up there with delivering the mail, building roads, and defending our shores.

You might say I'm an "apostate" Libertarian (footnotes AA).

From a practical standpoint, drug rehab costs less money and does more good than prison. Sure, put the addict in jail when he steals or kills to support his addiction, but possession -on its own- is a crime that I believe should be done away with.

I don't think that's an affront to libertarian ideals.

Professor Tiger wrote:Drug treatment is WAAAY cheaper than prison.

Libertarianism is not monolithic. It comes in various shapes and sizes. I'm in favor of eliminating all sorts of governmental fraud, waste and abuse. I'm in favor of the federal government returning to its very limited Constitutional roles. But I also believe that one of the basic responsibilities of the federal government is to ensure its citizens don't starve in the streets. That responsibility is right up there with delivering the mail, building roads, and defending our shores.

You might say I'm an "apostate" Libertarian (footnotes AA).

if drugs are legalized, then prison isn't the issue - there is no prison

and if you have the freedom to choose, then don't ask the public to pay for your decisions with government funded drug treatment.

but if you steal to support your habit, then you will go to prison. Thats libertarian

I don't think you can talk about governments responsibility to take care of its citizens while at the same time expect them to stay out of your life when it comes to behavior that is detrimental to you and society as a whole

"From a practical standpoint, drug rehab costs less money and does more good than prison. Sure, put the addict in jail when he steals or kills to support his addiction, but possession -on its own- is a crime that I believe should be done away with. "

Amen, brother!

"and if you have the freedom to choose, then don't ask the public to pay for your decisions with government funded drug treatment."

I've never said that drug abuse isn't a problem. It is. My point is that treatment is far more effective at lessening the problem than prison. Seems like anybody that is really concerned with a problem would support better ways to deal with it. But even if you're against any kind of solution to the problem on libertarian grounds, I still say people should be able to make their own bad choices as long as they're not harming anyone but themselves. Like AA said, if they resort to stealing and whatnot, that's a crime and they should face the consequences. But simply using drugs should not be a crime, not even on the absurd grounds that it might lead to criminal behavior...

hedge wrote:"and if you have the freedom to choose, then don't ask the public to pay for your decisions with government funded drug treatment."

I've never said that drug abuse isn't a problem. It is. My point is that treatment is far more effective at lessening the problem than prison. Seems like anybody that is really concerned with a problem would support better ways to deal with it. But even if you're against any kind of solution to the problem on libertarian grounds, I still say people should be able to make their own bad choices as long as they're not harming anyone but themselves. Like AA said, if they resort to stealing and whatnot, that's a crime and they should face the consequences. But simply using drugs should not be a crime, not even on the absurd grounds that it might lead to criminal behavior...

its not absurd

it does lead to criminal behavior in many users....and there is no logical conclusion that would lead anyone to believe that would change if it was legalized.

Criminal behavior should be punished. But nothing should be criminalized simply because it might lead to criminal behavior. Also, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of drug users do not resort to criminal behavior. Sure, some do, but trying to paint all drug users with that brush is like Trump pulling out isolated incidents of crime by illegal immigrants and trying to scare people into believing that they all do it or are likely to do it. Yes, it's absurd...

eCat wrote:

Professor Tiger wrote:Drug treatment is WAAAY cheaper than prison.

Libertarianism is not monolithic. It comes in various shapes and sizes. I'm in favor of eliminating all sorts of governmental fraud, waste and abuse. I'm in favor of the federal government returning to its very limited Constitutional roles. But I also believe that one of the basic responsibilities of the federal government is to ensure its citizens don't starve in the streets. That responsibility is right up there with delivering the mail, building roads, and defending our shores.

You might say I'm an "apostate" Libertarian (footnotes AA).

if drugs are legalized, then prison isn't the issue - there is no prison

and if you have the freedom to choose, then don't ask the public to pay for your decisions with government funded drug treatment.

but if you steal to support your habit, then you will go to prison. Thats libertarian

I don't think you can talk about governments responsibility to take care of its citizens while at the same time expect them to stay out of your life when it comes to behavior that is detrimental to you and society as a whole

excellent, perfect

ECat, I think we would all agree that excessive alcohol and tobacco leads to health problems that are a drain on society. But we pay for it anyway without much of a fuss. When the doctor looks at the X-ray, sees cancer, and asks the patient if he smoked, and the patient says yes, we don't expect the doctor to call security and give the patient the bum's rush. When the paramedic arrives at a car crash, and smells alcohol on the driver's breath, he doesn't leave the driver pinned in the car to bleed out.

We pay for the medical treatment of alcoholics and tobacco abusers all the time, despite their bad choices. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do the same with drug addicts and their resulting health issues.

PS We all also pay the medical costs of people who chose to spend their lifetime eating twinkies, never exercising, and now weigh 300 lbs and have diabetes with all its expensive complications.

Professor Tiger wrote:ECat, I think we would all agree that excessive alcohol and tobacco leads to health problems that are a drain on society. But we pay for it anyway without much of a fuss. When the doctor looks at the X-ray, sees cancer, and asks the patient if he smoked, and the patient says yes, we don't expect the doctor to call security and give the patient the bum's rush. When the paramedic arrives at a car crash, and smells alcohol on the driver's breath, he doesn't leave the driver pinned in the car to bleed out.

We pay for the medical treatment of alcoholics and tobacco abusers all the time, despite their bad choices. I don't see any reason why we shouldn't do the same with drug addicts and their resulting health issues.

I don't accept the argument that because tobacco and alchohol are legal, heroin should be too. You could extend it to seat belts, motorcycle helmets, extreme sport enthusiasts, gun owners, repo men.......

my point is I can't see people pushing this as libertarian principles if part of their argument includes a taxpayer supported safety net where prison is replaced with drug treatment.

I'm with you, eCat, on legalization of heroin. I think decriminalization is okay, though. In other words, cite them, confiscate, mandate treatment, but keep them out of prison if that's their only offense, but the heroin issue isn't the hill I will die on. It is too dangerous for the herd to be legal, imo.

Pot, however...

From 2001 to 2010, there were over 8 million marijauna arrests in the US. More than 88% of those 8 million arrests were for simply having small amounts of pot - no other "crime".

Research shows that about the same number of white kids and black kids use pot, but a black kid is nearly 4 times more likely to be popped for pot possession. Besides jail, these folks often lose public benefits and jobs with an arrest.

Between law enforcement, the judiciary, and incarceration, the US spends more than $3.5 trillion on Marjauna enforcement.

More than half of all Americans support pot legalization.

https://www.aclu.org/gallery/marijuana-arrests-numbers

I'm fine with legalization of pot

an argument can be made that legalization would improve society - reduced crime, more taxes, as well as the medical value to people with chronic pain - without the undesirable side effect of debilitating addiction

welp...I guess we were right to assume the worst in the first place

Just saw that.