The Goat Pen

crashcourse wrote:one thing about fire and brimstone especailly during your formulative years is I think the fear of god makes us better citizens--less likely to hurt eachother/less likely to sin so to speak.

by and large most of christian/jewish/muslim/baptist/catholic america is a benevolent group. taking belief in god totally out of the equation and your much more likely to have chaos.

Good point. A big reason there is so much chaos in the middle east and Africa is because they have no fire and brimstone religion in their lives.

eCat wrote:if we believe in creation of all things, then who created the universe, when did time begin?

a higher power is perhaps the easiest answer to wrap your head around as answers.

but if a higher power does exist, he/she/it doesn't give two shits about what happens to planet earth, much less individuals on it.

Deism baby - it works on multiple levels

Why believe in the creation of all things? That sounds like a human construct to me. But, if there is a higher power, who created that? At some point, you have to say that something just is and, to me, it's a lot easier to accept that the universe is eternal and has always existed in some form or another than it is to believe that there is some intelligent higher power that is behind all of this but also exists in a place and form that is completely undetectable. Deism is a nice place to punt the problem of how and why but it still is a completely unsatisfying answer that tells us nothing. Obviously, the stories about a god that is currently undetectable but at a point in the not so distant past routinely interacted with people and cares a lot about our sex lives and the skin on the tip of our dicks are completely absurd. I find it very frustrating how many people will just accept these insane stories just because they have become part of our culture. Really, how does anyone believe the jesus tale? Aside from all the impossible things in the story, how does the base of the story even make sense? Why would a god that is behind this whole universe decide that the best way to "save" a tiny subset of people is to send his son (who is also himself) down to a shitty slice of the world and have him executed? And why did he do this? To redeem people from the sins of two other people who never existed. Come on, this is nuts. And yet, there are millions of very smart people who look at this and go along with it. I don't get it at all.

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"Really, how does anyone believe the jesus tale?"

When one's first introduction to logic is "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so", and you are cajoled (forced) to sing it over and over again before your mind has even formed, it's not that difficult to see why so many believe it. It seems harsh to call it brainwashing, but the term really does fit in this case...

"Give me the child until he is seven and I’ll give you the man." - attributed to Francis Xavier, co-founder of the Jesuit order

I understand the ways it gets so entrenched but I still can't believe that otherwise reasonable people go along with this tale despite tons of key elements that they know can't be true.

For me, regarding the things that are not "obviously" true, I view them as parables...not as history.

Funny enough, my 4 years old daughter asked me last week "if God created everything, who created Him?" She's sharp.

The resurrection is a parable? If so, that puts you at odds with the entire religion.

Cletus wrote:

eCat wrote:if we believe in creation of all things, then who created the universe, when did time begin?

a higher power is perhaps the easiest answer to wrap your head around as answers.

but if a higher power does exist, he/she/it doesn't give two shits about what happens to planet earth, much less individuals on it.

Deism baby - it works on multiple levels

Why believe in the creation of all things? That sounds like a human construct to me. But, if there is a higher power, who created that? At some point, you have to say that something just is and, to me, it's a lot easier to accept that the universe is eternal and has always existed in some form or another than it is to believe that there is some intelligent higher power that is behind all of this but also exists in a place and form that is completely undetectable. Deism is a nice place to punt the problem of how and why but it still is a completely unsatisfying answer that tells us nothing. Obviously, the stories about a god that is currently undetectable but at a point in the not so distant past routinely interacted with people and cares a lot about our sex lives and the skin on the tip of our dicks are completely absurd. I find it very frustrating how many people will just accept these insane stories just because they have become part of our culture. Really, how does anyone believe the jesus tale? Aside from all the impossible things in the story, how does the base of the story even make sense? Why would a god that is behind this whole universe decide that the best way to "save" a tiny subset of people is to send his son (who is also himself) down to a shitty slice of the world and have him executed? And why did he do this? To redeem people from the sins of two other people who never existed. Come on, this is nuts. And yet, there are millions of very smart people who look at this and go along with it. I don't get it at all.

it absolutely is a human construct - but that's all were capable of imagining. Its inherent to us that something has to have a beginning and end, that something is created in order to exist. I think a big part of religion is about not having all the answers - hell, that's why religion exists at all. If we knew all the answers we wouldn't have to place our faith in the unknown or believe that the answer we seek is in the unknown. I know I can't accept that the universe is just there which is why Deism works well for me. I congratulate you for getting past it.

I don't have to subscribe to any religion, but I"m OK in believing that something out there - whether it was intentional or butterfly effect took actions that led to our existence. From that regard, we can't assume we're the dominant species in big picture. There may be something out there that regards us the same way we regard an ant colony, and just like growing human ears from a stem cell in a petri dish, it/he/she/them might hold the keys to life as we know it. It may be no more of a challenge to create carbon based life than it is for us to microwave popcorn. If that entity exists, I doubt he/she/it/them gives two shits whether we worship or not.

I decided long ago that religion serves a very valuable purpose because there are many people in this world that need that hope, that need that acceptance, that need a conscious relief valve that lets them believe that whatever ailment , affliction , plague, misery or bad karma that life gives - that submission to something bigger than them will release them of it. Otherwise they'll just get the thousand yard stare that hits serial killers just before they go on a rampage. That's why I don't really go on an anti-religious rant. I don't need it, but if it keeps my next door neighbor going to his shitty job, paying taxes and coming home to his fatass wife instead of turning my street into a scene from the road warrior, I'm ok with it.

When do most people get religion? - usually at traumatic point in their life - and it becomes a coping mechanism. God saved me from drinking, drugs, rotting in prison, cheating on my wife, killing my neighbor, etc,.

Humans want to believe in the invisible guiding hand - in whatever form they want it to be. And we all know what that belief in the invisible hand has caused mankind to do over the centuries.

I did read something that I thought was really profound - on the wall of a concentration camp someone scrawled - "if there is a god, he owes me an apology"

The only reason I ever go to church is for the music and because my youngest guilts me into it once in awhile. It's a neighborhood church so it's funny to see the people I grew up with praising Jesus knowing what I know about them from years gone by. My favorite is the girl who in high school loved wrapping her gum tightly around my cock and removing it with her tounge. Today she posts Bible quotes every morning.

eCat wrote: I decided long ago that religion serves a very valuable purpose because there are many people in this world that need that hope, that need that acceptance, that need a conscious relief valve that lets them believe that whatever ailment , affliction , plague, misery or bad karma that life gives - that submission to something bigger than them will release them of it. Otherwise they'll just get the thousand yard stare that hits serial killers just before they go on a rampage. That's why I don't really go on an anti-religious rant. I don't need it, but if it keeps my next door neighbor going to his shitty job, paying taxes and coming home to his fatass wife instead of turning my street into a scene from the road warrior, I'm ok with it.

When do most people get religion? - usually at traumatic point in their life - and it becomes a coping mechanism. God saved me from drinking, drugs, rotting in prison, cheating on my wife, killing my neighbor, etc,.

Humans want to believe in the invisible guiding hand - in whatever form they want it to be. And we all know what that belief in the invisible hand has caused mankind to do over the centuries.

^This

Cletus wrote:The resurrection is a parable?

Nope, not that one. I was speaking more Old Testament shit. 40 day, 40 night rains. Creation in 7 days. That shit.

The resurrection, at its most basic level, could be easily recreated today by an atheist. Shit, some cat just dug himself out his grave last week and made it on the Daily Show.

My blasphemy aside, yes I believe in the resurrection. (Should I capitalize that? Where is IB when you need him...hahahahaha, I kid. I kid. Like he's ever needed)

Why do you believe that this impossible thing happened?

I believe in Jesus Christ as the Resurrected Son of God who walked this Earth for our Salvation. No doubt, I was indoctrinated to think this way. I also spent many years with my back turned against that indoctrination, living for myself and doing whatever felt "right" to me. But, ultimately, I decided that was an empty existence and returned to my Christian Faith - which, by the way, is not a Religious Experience, but rather a quiet and faithful walk with God. I do not judge nor project my beliefs on others nor do I condemn those who think differently. I simply believe in a God who loves us all enough to sacrifice his Son (Himself) for our salvation and hope in some small way, every day, to follow that example and extend that Love to others however I can.

I believe what I believe because when I walk in the Spirit, my life is better. When I turn my back on the Spirit, my life is worse. Both my internal and external lives are affected. And this is born of 47 years of experience living both paths - on extended journeys with each.

Do I believe that Jesus was crucified? Yep. That he was buried? Yep. That when his family went to his burial site he was gone and it turned out he was alive? Yep. I think all those points are things very well within the realm of possible.

Do I believe that after that he ascended to heaven and vowed to return again and make all things right with the world? That's a tough one, I know. That's pure magic and the impossible wrapped up into one story. I believe it as an article of faith...but I also believe that that part is not as consequential to me as the philosophy that Jesus espoused. I guess my chair sits a few yards away from Agnostic, but I still have room to allow for leaps of faith and mystery to reside with me.

Maybe it's worthless exercise or foolish use of good meditation time. Either way, if the placebo works what's the harm in taking it?

"and hope in some small way, every day, to follow that example and extend that Love to others however I can."

Is that what you were doing with my girlfriend when we visited you guys in Ohio?

"Do I believe that Jesus was crucified? Yep. That he was buried? Yep. That when his family went to his burial site he was gone and it turned out he was alive? Yep. I think all those points are things very well within the realm of possible."

It's time, isn't it? Black stars rise. I know what happens next. He sees ya. You'll do this again. Time is a flat circle...

I have been an atheist since I was 10-years-old - so I've never had a religious life to do a comparison with. My life is better when I do things that aren't harmful to me or others. Further, I work hard to make my community and world better through acts of labor and philanthropy. I work hard to provide for others - and always have. Being free of god(s) does not mean you only live for yourself.

"My life is better when I do things that aren't harmful to me or others. Further, I work hard to make my community and world better through acts of labor and philanthropy."

I wish you would try that in here...

You want philanthropy in here? Or labor?

Bluecat wrote:I believe in Jesus Christ as the Resurrected Son of God who walked this Earth for our Salvation. No doubt, I was indoctrinated to think this way. I also spent many years with my back turned against that indoctrination, living for myself and doing whatever felt "right" to me. But, ultimately, I decided that was an empty existence and returned to my Christian Faith - which, by the way, is not a Religious Experience, but rather a quiet and faithful walk with God. I do not judge nor project my beliefs on others nor do I condemn those who think differently. I simply believe in a God who loves us all enough to sacrifice his Son (Himself) for our salvation and hope in some small way, every day, to follow that example and extend that Love to others however I can.

I believe what I believe because when I walk in the Spirit, my life is better. When I turn my back on the Spirit, my life is worse. Both my internal and external lives are affected. And this is born of 47 years of experience living both paths - on extended journeys with each.

Great to hear, Bluecat. Color me impressed.