The Goat Pen

the daily show put out a tweet about Biden's SOTU speech - comparing it to a phone that was low on battery

they got so much backlash, they deleted it

unbelievable.


I didn't watch the speech but I did hear that Biden said he was going to fund the police or something to that effect.

I can't think of a more direct way to shit on progressives than to talk about the need for funding police. Might as well hang a FUCK BLM banner while he is at it.

Maxine Walters immediately filled her colostomy bag when he said it

After the speech, progressives actually did a rebuttal on thePresident who is of their own party. I didn’t listen to it because they’re stupid, but it happened

The lady from Iowa with the Republican response was hilarious.

At least there is a recognition that you can't have rampant homelessness, "humane" shoplifting laws and investing in safe drug use and expect to see a better quality of life in the city.

For all his faults - Guliani's broken window approach to crime is the right answer, IMO, to managing big city crime - and yes there will be human casualties to this, but that is because the cities do not or cannot invest in mental health support and drug rehabilitation, they refuse to load up the prisons with these people so their answer is to force law abiding citizens to deal with it daily - and the result is they move out to other parts of the country.

But the larger issue here is that the net sum of the attempts to defund the police and address the human tragedy of issues facing the disadvantaged in the large cities has lowered the quality of living for the people that are vital to the growth and revenue base of the city. Its a horrible model to implement and its based on a belief of taxing the wealthiest to support illegal activities.

I never looked at defunding the police as actually taking away money. To me it was more about reallocation of those funds to better serve the people. How many used tanks does a police department need? As far as what e said above. I have no clue what he's whining about this time.

I can tell you from first hand experience and knowledge that marijuana decriminalization, lessening / eliminating punishment for drug possession, investing in rehabilitation and mental health facilities, providing first time criminal offenders for low level felonies and misdemeanors with diversion programs to help avoid convictions, and modernizing the record expungement process are the keys. That first bs conviction for something low level often makes the person unemployable / limits where he / she can work, limits housing opportunities and limits educational opportunities opportunities. It helps create a vicious cycle. Yes, free will plays a part, but the system / society as a whole creates a lot of issues the average person can’t escape. I am glad people are starting to recognize this, but we are a far cry from people being able to admit the reality of these issues beyond lip service.

Jungle Rat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:48 am I never looked at defunding the police as actually taking away money. To me it was more about reallocation of those funds to better serve the people. How many used tanks does a police department need? As far as what e said above. I have no clue what he's whining about this time.

You can thank federal drug / asset seizure laws and military surplus sales to local governments necessitated because we feed the military - industrial complex with constant acquisition and need to move the old equipment.

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:51 am I can tell you from first hand experience and knowledge that marijuana decriminalization, lessening / eliminating punishment for drug possession, investing in rehabilitation and mental health facilities are the keys, providing first time criminal offenders for low level felonies and misdemeanors with diversion programs to help avoid convictions, and modernizing the record expungement process are the keys. That first bs conviction for something low level often makes the person unemployable / limits where he / she can work, limits housing opportunities and limits educational opportunities opportunities. It helps create a vicious cycle. Yes, free will plays a part, but the system / society as a whole creates a lot of issues the average person can’t escape. I am glad people are starting to recognize this, but we are a far cry from people being able to admit the reality of these issues beyond lip service.

Ed Zachary

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:53 am

Jungle Rat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:48 am I never looked at defunding the police as actually taking away money. To me it was more about reallocation of those funds to better serve the people. How many used tanks does a police department need? As far as what e said above. I have no clue what he's whining about this time.

You can thank federal drug / asset seizure laws and military surplus sales to local governments necessitated because we feed the military - industrial complex with constant acquisition and need to move the old equipment.

Local law enforcement agencies that acquire "tanks" (well, military grade vehicles) are only doing so because those vehicles are being de-commissioned and sent to the junk yard (they serve no further military purpose.) The local community can get their hands on a 25 year old armored personnel carrier for a $1 and give it to their police department. For riot control, that is money well spent.

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:51 am I can tell you from first hand experience and knowledge that marijuana decriminalization, lessening / eliminating punishment for drug possession, investing in rehabilitation and mental health facilities are the keys, providing first time criminal offenders for low level felonies and misdemeanors with diversion programs to help avoid convictions, and modernizing the record expungement process are the keys. That first bs conviction for something low level often makes the person unemployable / limits where he / she can work, limits housing opportunities and limits educational opportunities opportunities. It helps create a vicious cycle. Yes, free will plays a part, but the system / society as a whole creates a lot of issues the average person can’t escape. I am glad people are starting to recognize this, but we are a far cry from people being able to admit the reality of these issues beyond lip service.

that's all well and good but as a politician you create an environment where you develop policies to allow an existence of living on the streets, petty shoplifting and supported drug use, that isn't an escape , you're just making the city unlivable for the population that is necessary for it to thrive.

What we've seen with true police defunding is an increase in crime, noticeably in regards to violent crime. This idea of taking away "bloated" police resources and allocate it to social workers, drug rehab programs and the like has resulted in a population explosion of the very people they were trying to help alleviate while at the same time marginalizing the police presence necessary to provide a safe environment for people to co-exist. That's not hyperbole, that is fact based to the extent many of these progressive Mayors have had to backtrack on their initial commitment to defunding. Now all of that is coupled with crushing rent prices.

The answer is probably increased funding for police and additional funding for social programs that help the addicted and mentally ill, but that was never going to fly with the George Floyd movement. They had to punish the police and in doing so fucked their cities and in turn its tax revenue generation.

eCat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:06 pm

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:51 am I can tell you from first hand experience and knowledge that marijuana decriminalization, lessening / eliminating punishment for drug possession, investing in rehabilitation and mental health facilities are the keys, providing first time criminal offenders for low level felonies and misdemeanors with diversion programs to help avoid convictions, and modernizing the record expungement process are the keys. That first bs conviction for something low level often makes the person unemployable / limits where he / she can work, limits housing opportunities and limits educational opportunities opportunities. It helps create a vicious cycle. Yes, free will plays a part, but the system / society as a whole creates a lot of issues the average person can’t escape. I am glad people are starting to recognize this, but we are a far cry from people being able to admit the reality of these issues beyond lip service.

that's all well and good but as a politician you create an environment where you develop policies to allow an existence of living on the streets, petty shoplifting and supported drug use, that isn't an escape , you're just making the city unlivable for the population that is necessary for it to thrive.

I have a professional colleague who lives and works in San Francisco. He earns (roughly) $50,000/year MORE than what I make to do the same technical job I have in Phoenix. And he needs it because he has a $4800 mortgage payment for a 2 bedroom townhouse. LOL! Anyway, I ask him, is he sick and tired of all the homeless and all the shit/filth on the streets, sick and tired of living in a city where the mayor refuses to prosecute the homeless stealing food at Walgreens/CVS? And he says, no. Its disgusting, but he tolerates it. If there is a homeless bum passed out on the street in front of his townhouse (and there usually is, same guy), he just "steps over them" on his way to the coffee shop. If he sees a pile of human shit on the street he just "steps over that." He tolerates it. Moreover, the city (with a 0% vacancy rate for both residential and commercial real-estate) and an effective unemployment rate of 0%, they don't give a shit. They just don't. 0-0-0, that is what they care about, the only thing a city cares about. They love it!

The population that lives there that is necessary for it to thrive, they tolerate it eCat. They just shrug their shoulders, ignore the filth and the filthy people, and go about the business of making money.

he may tolerate it, many don't

-------------------------------

For years, a similar number of people moved out of San Francisco as into it. But that changed during the pandemic. Excluding moves from abroad, over 72,000 more people have moved out of the city than in since the beginning of 2020—a figure that is almost eight times higher than the same period in 2018-2019.

The Chronicle received an exclusive look at data on California migration patterns from the California Policy Lab, a research group based out of the University of California. The data, called the University of California Consumer Credit Panel, tracks movements of the approximately 90% of Californian adults with active credit information every quarter. It shows the number of Californians that have moved both within counties and to and from other states.

The data shows that during the pandemic, California had far higher levels of what’s called “negative net domestic migration” compared to the prior two years. That is, the number of Californians leaving the state for other parts of the country has increased, while the number of people moving into the state from the rest of the U.S. has decreased.

-------------

you can probably see similar stories for Portland and Seattle - I wouldn't be surprised to see it for every major city that promoted defunding, a tolerance for permanent homelessness and relaxed laws on shoplifting prosecution.

and I haven't even talked about the business that are shutting down because they can't afford to keep going with the loss prevention costs and hiring due to prop 47

eCat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:06 pm

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:51 am I can tell you from first hand experience and knowledge that marijuana decriminalization, lessening / eliminating punishment for drug possession, investing in rehabilitation and mental health facilities are the keys, providing first time criminal offenders for low level felonies and misdemeanors with diversion programs to help avoid convictions, and modernizing the record expungement process are the keys. That first bs conviction for something low level often makes the person unemployable / limits where he / she can work, limits housing opportunities and limits educational opportunities opportunities. It helps create a vicious cycle. Yes, free will plays a part, but the system / society as a whole creates a lot of issues the average person can’t escape. I am glad people are starting to recognize this, but we are a far cry from people being able to admit the reality of these issues beyond lip service.

that's all well and good but as a politician you create an environment where you develop policies to allow an existence of living on the streets, petty shoplifting and supported drug use, that isn't an escape , you're just making the city unlivable for the population that is necessary for it to thrive.

What we've seen with true police defunding is an increase in crime, noticeably in regards to violent crime. This idea of taking away "bloated" police resources and allocate it to social workers, drug rehab programs and the like has resulted in a population explosion of the very people they were trying to help alleviate while at the same time marginalizing the police presence necessary to provide a safe environment for people to co-exist. That's not hyperbole, that is fact based to the extent many of these progressive Mayors have had to backtrack on their initial commitment to defunding. Now all of that is coupled with crushing rent prices.

The answer is probably increased funding for police and additional funding for social programs that help the addicted and mentally ill, but that was never going to fly with the George Floyd movement. They had to punish the police and in doing so fucked their cities and in turn its tax revenue generation.

Bull Shit.

Those programs/actions are proven to be effective. Even the NC GOP -- one of the most reactionary groups in the nation -- backs many of those measures to varying extents, and the measures are proving to be effective. These measures do not create some bs criminal free for all as claimed by people who have no first hand experience / knowledge. If the people who enter these diversion programs fuck up, they end up with a conviction, and in some instances, various states have provisions that if you complete the program successfully but then are arrested and convicted afterwards, the diversion is revoked and the person then has two convictions. So, there are plenty of repercussions and monetary requirements.

Law enforcement needs more funding, but not for bullshit equipment like surplus MRAP's. Law enforcement officers need to undergo more extensive vetting, much more training and be compensated at a more competitive rate to attract better candidates. Way too many of the younger generation of law enforcement are kids who were/are losers who couldn't hack it elsewhere and are on a power trip. When you add that to the piss poor training, you get incidents like George Floyd.

Floyd didn't happen in a vacuum, and I guarantee each of the systemic issues I have described played a role in that tragedy and the tragedies like it that have been happening for far too long.

eCat.

I agree with all of that. But as long as the city has 0-0-0 (or close to it) then the city doesn't care, the mayor doesn't care, and the police department doesn't care about all the homeless and they dumps they take on the street. So 72,000 people leave in 2 years, they don't care. That just means that there is more housing available for the fewer people that live there, and they buy it all up and rent it all anyway. There are a lot of "singletons" living in San Francisco in two bedroom condos. So, 0-0-0.

innocentbystander wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:04 pm

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:53 am

Jungle Rat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:48 am I never looked at defunding the police as actually taking away money. To me it was more about reallocation of those funds to better serve the people. How many used tanks does a police department need? As far as what e said above. I have no clue what he's whining about this time.

You can thank federal drug / asset seizure laws and military surplus sales to local governments necessitated because we feed the military - industrial complex with constant acquisition and need to move the old equipment.

Local law enforcement agencies that acquire "tanks" (well, military grade vehicles) are only doing so because those vehicles are being de-commissioned and sent to the junk yard (they serve no further military purpose.) The local community can get their hands on a 25 year old armored personnel carrier for a $1 and give it to their police department. For riot control, that is money well spent.

I live in Fayetteville, a city of 208,501 people as of the 2020 census (and I would say 1/3-1/2 of that is military / military families). Pray tell why we need a fucking MRAP? What riot is happening here that would require that? The riot after George Floyd's funeral here in 2020 was squashed once the police chief was allowed to send in officers. They didn't need a MRAP, and that was by far the biggest disturbance since Sherman came through. Providing law enforcement with military equipment is a disaster.

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:29 pm

eCat wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:06 pm

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 11:51 am I can tell you from first hand experience and knowledge that marijuana decriminalization, lessening / eliminating punishment for drug possession, investing in rehabilitation and mental health facilities are the keys, providing first time criminal offenders for low level felonies and misdemeanors with diversion programs to help avoid convictions, and modernizing the record expungement process are the keys. That first bs conviction for something low level often makes the person unemployable / limits where he / she can work, limits housing opportunities and limits educational opportunities opportunities. It helps create a vicious cycle. Yes, free will plays a part, but the system / society as a whole creates a lot of issues the average person can’t escape. I am glad people are starting to recognize this, but we are a far cry from people being able to admit the reality of these issues beyond lip service.

that's all well and good but as a politician you create an environment where you develop policies to allow an existence of living on the streets, petty shoplifting and supported drug use, that isn't an escape , you're just making the city unlivable for the population that is necessary for it to thrive.

What we've seen with true police defunding is an increase in crime, noticeably in regards to violent crime. This idea of taking away "bloated" police resources and allocate it to social workers, drug rehab programs and the like has resulted in a population explosion of the very people they were trying to help alleviate while at the same time marginalizing the police presence necessary to provide a safe environment for people to co-exist. That's not hyperbole, that is fact based to the extent many of these progressive Mayors have had to backtrack on their initial commitment to defunding. Now all of that is coupled with crushing rent prices.

The answer is probably increased funding for police and additional funding for social programs that help the addicted and mentally ill, but that was never going to fly with the George Floyd movement. They had to punish the police and in doing so fucked their cities and in turn its tax revenue generation.

Bull Shit.

Those programs/actions are proven to be effective. Even the NC GOP -- one of the most reactionary groups in the nation -- backs many of those measures to varying extents, and the measures are proving to be effective. These measures do not create some bs criminal free for all as claimed by people who have no first hand experience / knowledge. If the people who enter these diversion programs fuck up, they end up with a conviction, and in some instances, various states have provisions that if you complete the program successfully but then are arrested and convicted afterwards, the diversion is revoked and the person then has two convictions. So, there are plenty of repercussions and monetary requirements.

Law enforcement needs more funding, but not for bullshit equipment like surplus MRAP's. Law enforcement officers need to undergo more extensive vetting, much more training and be compensated at a more competitive rate to attract better candidates. Way too many of the younger generation of law enforcement are kids who were/are losers who couldn't hack it elsewhere and are on a power trip. When you add that to the piss poor training, you get incidents like George Floyd.

Floyd didn't happen in a vacuum, and I guarantee each of the systemic issues I have described played a role in that tragedy and the tragedies like it that have been happening for far too long.

ok well first of all, get me up to speed with your first hand experience with San Francisco, Seattle and Portland

secondly I didn't say the programs didn't work, I said funding them cannot come at the cost of defunding police, because even if you think police funding is bloated, you cut the police funding and the net result is increased crime - that is not debatable based on data from these cities.

I don't give a fuck about tanks or whatever, and absolutely police need more vetting, but you aren't going to get that defunding, you want better police, don't pay a guy $60K a year to go out on the streets and deal with a George Floyd mentality where people are trying to lock you up for making the city safe, then you'll get better people.

So we agree as to why George Floyd happen and you said they need more funding, but you say my post is bullshit

that is liberal logic.

"that's all well and good but as a politician you create an environment where you develop policies to allow an existence of living on the streets, petty shoplifting and supported drug use, that isn't an escape , you're just making the city unlivable for the population that is necessary for it to thrive."

That's the bullshit.

ok, so prop 47

intended to reduce prison population - net result - increased break-ins of cars, homes and shoplifting

So here we have a policy created with the sole purpose of not putting people who break the law into prison, but keep them living in the city which leads to my next point

homelessness - people that live in $900K homes do not want a 1974 Winnebago parked in front of it and their local park full of tents, trash, needles and feces

please explain how that promotes a quality of life in the city and the net result of these cities seeing increased exodus of residents and business

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 12:42 pm "that's all well and good but as a politician you create an environment where you develop policies to allow an existence of living on the streets, petty shoplifting and supported drug use, that isn't an escape , you're just making the city unlivable for the population that is necessary for it to thrive."

That's the bullshit.

Let's at least be honest about our very high incarceration rates for non-violent drug offenders: that IS the bullshit.

No one goes to prison for smoking a joint. No one. That is a lie. There has never been even one person who was sent to prison because a cop saw him smoking a joint. We changed laws in the 1980s for mandatory sentencing for drug offenses not because we wanted to fill our prisons with recreational drug users. We changed the laws because our violent crime rate spiked in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Armed robbery, rape, murder, all went up in the late 60s and early 70s. Crime in the USA was SO BAD in 1981, we made dystopian horror movies like this one:



Things got out of control in the mid 1980s with the introduction of crack to the inner city. We hit our crime peak at or about 1991 or 1992. Then (thanks to federal legislation being passed for mandatory sentencing) crime start trending downward as our prisons started filling up with true criminals. But once again, we weren't putting recreational drug users in prison. That was not the goal of mandatory sentencing. The goal of the federal legislation that filled our prisons was to give district attorneys a weapon, something to use in their wheel-house to bargain with when sitting down with a perp guilty of something FAR WORSE. Ok, you knocked over a liquor store with a shotgun. But you were high on pot when you did that. Tell you what, plead guilty to smoking a joint, it has a mandatory minimum sentence that the judge must impost BY LAW, you go to prison for a year or whatever for smoking a joint, and we'll dismiss the charges against you for armed robbery (which is really why we are sending you to prison.)

That is the system working as designed. That was the purpose of mandatory sentencing for drug use. The DA knew (KNEW) that the judge couldn't fuck him in the ass with a measly sentence with a plea bargain. The law was the law, and the law was for the DA so that he could cut deals and get real criminals in prison.