The Goat Pen

aTm wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:41 pm NATO is at its core a defensive alliance/peacekeeping/deterrence force aligned around the United States and the United Kingdom. Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO because it takes them out of their sphere and invites any conflict with their neighbor to become essentially Russia vs the World if the US/UK are drawn in, but far more importantly, IMO, is that Russia does not want a Ukraine aligned with continental Europe (the European Union). Ukraine wanting to be aligned with Europe is what kicked this all off in 2014, not Ukraine wanting to be aligned with NATO.

Yup. I would only further add that NATO only exists because the Soviet Union (with intercontinental ballistic missiles) once existed. No Soviet Union with nukes, no NATO. Because there would have been no NEED for NATO.

aTm wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:41 pmThe large amount of EU and NATO cross membership also backs them into a corner. They cannot aggressively start any fight with the EU without setting off a war with the entirety of NATO including the USA and the UK who would be called in any defensive war against a NATO member state. Russia however, has no such protection from aggression (as they see it). Should one day in the future, the European continent begin to unite and has an aggressive military there is no such mechanism where the United States and UK would be called to their defense in the same way the US and UK would defend western Europe.

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that is not something Putin is the least bit concerned about. I mean, why should he even consider any of this? None of this will ever happen in our lifetimes, certainly not in Putin's lifetime. There is no way the European continent will unite and go after Russia with an aggressive military. Europe is now pretty much just museums, coffee houses, hotels, resorts, restaurants, and art galleries. Can they even build a tank anymore?

Napoleon and Hitler led nations filled with young people who felt they didn't have enough land for their children and grand-children and saw the vast open space of Russia as room that they are entitled. I think a largely childless continent of secular old people living in old houses with old ideas and marriage-less young people living a life of sexual hedonism and selfish desires (staying in university for ten years studying bullshit they never have to pay for, roaming the continent to "find themselves") will likely never be "invading anyone", NATO or no NATO. I think Europeans, they just want to be left alone. And in the case of the UK (exiting the EU) they want to be TOTALLY alone. The days of yore with European armies numbering in the millions waging war with one another, I think that all ended in the 1940s (and probably with good reason.)

IMHO, Putin does have reason to fear an invasion from a foreign power. But if that invasion comes, it will not be coming from Russia's Western border. It will be coming at them up from their Southern border.

aTm wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:57 pm Russia, unlike China, is essentially currently able to change all of the future existence of mankind into something totally different in an instant at the push of a button. I'm sure Putin would never do something like that, take the whole world out with him....yes, surely nobody would ever do that....would they?

The former head of the KGB is supposed to be a Christian (Eastern Orthodox.) But nothing he does would surprise me.

I never realized Napoleon was leading a European union...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_invasion_of_Russia

Belligerents

French Empire, Duchy of Warsaw, Kingdom of Italy, Kingdom of Naples, Kingdom of Saxony, Kingdom of Bavaria, Kingdom of Westphalia, Kingdom of Württemberg, Grand Duchy of Hesse, Grand Duchy of Berg, Grand Duchy of Baden, Swiss Confederation, Austrian Empire, Kingdom of Prussia, Kingdom of Spain

vs.

Russian Empire (Supported by: United Kingdom)

Kingdom of Dez Nuts

What I always found interesting about Napoleon's invasion of Russia is that he took Moscow. He conquered it but (like) whatever. The Russians just burned everything, left nothing for his army to eat while the Russians kept marching East. Without families and logistical support, without food and resources, Napoleon's army whittled down to nothing. Tactically Napoleon achieved everything he wanted. He just didn't have any trains and railroads to bring his army food and supplies. Puffing Billy was 1829 and he took Russia in early 1805 or whatever. Napoleon just figured he could "loot" to survive, but there was nothing to loot. He needed farmers to stay in Moscow, not soldiers. So, they turned around and headed back eating all their own horses all the way. And when they went back West, the Russians followed them Westerly and engaged them every step of the way, killed as many of his starving men as they could.

it seems that the New York DA feels there are no credible witnesses against Trump, while the prosecutors that resigned do

there is a civil case still pending, but it looks like the criminal case against Trump is pretty weak. It would seem they cannot show that Trump knew that he was intentionally misrepresenting the value of his assets

I'm sure it was all an honest misunderstanding..

"Belligerents

French Empire, Duchy of Warsaw, Kingdom of Italy, Kingdom of Naples, Kingdom of Saxony, Kingdom of Bavaria, Kingdom of Westphalia, Kingdom of Württemberg, Grand Duchy of Hesse, Grand Duchy of Berg, Grand Duchy of Baden, Swiss Confederation, Austrian Empire, Kingdom of Prussia, Kingdom of Spain

vs.

Russian Empire (Supported by: United Kingdom)"

Yeah, sounds like it was a really tight group of allies Napoleon had forged together, a real Band of Brothers held together by their love of Napoleon:

"There was a lull in fighting over the winter of 1812–13 while both the Russians and the French rebuilt their forces; Napoleon was able to field 350,000 troops. Heartened by France's loss (no mention of those other "belligerents") in Russia, Prussia joined with Austria, Sweden, Russia, Great Britain, Spain, and Portugal in a new coalition. Napoleon assumed command in Germany and inflicted a series of defeats on the Coalition culminating in the Battle of Dresden in August 1813."

"Despite these successes, the numbers continued to mount against Napoleon, and the French army was pinned down by a force twice its size and lost at the Battle of Leipzig. This was by far the largest battle of the Napoleonic Wars and cost more than 90,000 casualties in total."

Am I crazy or does it seem like Wolf Blitzer & Co. are excited about this Ukrainian invasion?

hedge wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:03 pm Am I crazy or does it seem like Wolf Blitzer & Co. are excited about this Ukrainian invasion?

It gets the conversation off of illegal immigration and the crime wave over-running our cities. It takes the target off of Biden. So yeah, Wolf has an erection right now.

innocentbystander wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 6:09 pm Yup. I would only further add that NATO only exists because the Soviet Union (with intercontinental ballistic missiles) once existed. No Soviet Union with nukes, no NATO. Because there would have been no NEED for NATO.

NATO predates the USSR testing its first nuke, you fucking idiot.

innocentbystander wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:03 am

hedge wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 10:03 pm Am I crazy or does it seem like Wolf Blitzer & Co. are excited about this Ukrainian invasion?

It gets the conversation off of illegal immigration and the crime wave over-running our cities. It takes the target off of Biden. So yeah, Wolf has an erection right now.

You are a fucking idiot and a waste of oxygen

innocentbystander wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:44 pm What I always found interesting about Napoleon's invasion of Russia is that he took Moscow. He conquered it but (like) whatever. The Russians just burned everything, left nothing for his army to eat while the Russians kept marching East. Without families and logistical support, without food and resources, Napoleon's army whittled down to nothing. Tactically Napoleon achieved everything he wanted. He just didn't have any trains and railroads to bring his army food and supplies. Puffing Billy was 1829 and he took Russia in early 1805 or whatever. Napoleon just figured he could "loot" to survive, but there was nothing to loot. He needed farmers to stay in Moscow, not soldiers. So, they turned around and headed back eating all their own horses all the way. And when they went back West, the Russians followed them Westerly and engaged them every step of the way, killed as many of his starving men as they could.

Moscow was not the capital at the time, you idiot.

I'm at the point where I'll worry about another countries borders when we get serious about ours

especially when the white house is telling Americans that we'll need to see $5 a gallon gas as the cost of our values.

i don't know if the press is just dropping the ball on reporting, but I don't get a sense that Ukrainians, other than the leaders who would like to keep in charge, are all that fretful over Russia taking them over.

certainly not in Crimea

we just spent the last 2 years handing out money to Americans who can't work and these motherfuckers in Washington are telling them now is the time to suck it up to prevent a WWII level action in Europe.

fucking Lindsay Graham.

The one thing that worries me about the invasion is that it gives a green light to China to move in to Taiwan. It would hurt us economically, especially in the chip industry.

I will say that Taiwan will put up more of a fight than Ukraine will and it's harder to invade an island than a loose border country right next to you.

I think the sad reality is that economics has been our only weapon with China in regards to Taiwan

We aren't going to go to risk any conflict with China. If we are serious about going after China or Russia, our first move is focus heavily on becoming independent of a global economy. Shutting down pipelines for example, doesn't help us in that regard.