Toronto Raptors - We can't be pathetic forever, can we?

[T Dot O Dot]

sotola, Aldridge was a legit all-star candidate last year

and many pundits felt Duncan received the nod as a "lifetime achievement" award as opposed to their play that respective season

[sotola]

I really don't care BUT prior to his injury, Bargnani was a legit candidate for all star as well. There were not any centers in the EC outside of Howard who had better numbers.

And I could name about 50 players I would rather build my franchise around. They both are not guys you would build around if given a choice

I am not impressed with either so I don't want to debate one against the other... they both are 2nd or 3rd tier players imo

[Simitar]

Bargs was an all-star candidate (under the old rules) the same way Jamal Magloire was. Total lack of good players at the position.

LMA was a legit candidate at PF - the most stacked position in the league.

[sotola]

and it still wouldnt change my opinion that i would take 50 guys before him if starting a team

[yossarian1234]

Finally watched Raptors again yesterday after missing out for several games, can't believe the officiating. Most of the times, during last quarter especially the officiating is just plain bad at least from the games I've watched. Something needs to be done. Colangelo or Casey need to raise the issue.

We still need to find a way to close out games much better because that was also painful to watch but the refs certainly did not help. It doesn't matter whether we are playing at home or away.

[yossarian1234]

And Sotola, a few pointers.

I've said all I needed to say about 2nd rounders, Quincy Acy, Quincy Miller. This team has limited means of improving itself so every pick counts and 7th in 2nd round, you still have a chance to get a rotation player. That player will still need some realistic opportunity for PT and on this team, SF has a heck lot better chance to do that than PF. Do you disagree?

"If you can honestly say that this line up isn't a lot better than 3 years ago, you truly do not know basketball at all and should be barred from commenting again."

Seriously, I don't know where you get off saying shit like this. WTF. Your attitude is getting old. First of all, this has got nothing to do with anything that I've said. Again your reading comprehension is failing you or whatever other shit you got going is failing you. No, I'm not happy with the direction of the team. I don't care how good this team is compared to 3 years ago. I believe when you have limited means of improving as this team does, you need to adapt and do things a certain way. Colangelo isn't adapting. Let's just put it that way.

"It's not rocket science and it's easy to say "he should be fired unless he craps golden eggs""

So apparently, according to you, Bargnani could still turn out better than Aldridge and yet getting a starting caliber SF for him and Calderon is crapping golden eggs? When all past history suggests Colangelo is better at trades to fix up his mistakes than anything else? Either your logic's failing you or again you lack reading comprehension cause I wasn't asking for an All-Star, just someone you can give starter's minutes to so that we don't have to keep resorting to playing people from European/Dleague scrap heap extended minutes.

[yossarian1234]

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/ar ... t-athletes

"Picking eighth, I passed on somebody I consider a top-five talent in the draft because we felt like he didn’t have the right mental makeup. I passed on someone we thought was a top-three physical specimen because we felt he wasn’t the right fit for our team and didn’t have the right mental makeup."

Not sure if he's talking about the same person. He could be right but then again Bargnani supposedly had fantastic metal makeup at least on caliper test and we all know how that's turned out. Sometimes, you just overthink things with all these analytics and I think this could be one of those times for Colangelo. Opportunity's there, it's not there every year, why not just go for it? A team like ours where it's hard to get decent FA's to come here even after grossly overpaying, and you end out with a mediocre pick, you go for a home run pick when it's there. I don't know if you can do much worse with an 8th pick, at the end of the day, you can at least say you went for it. I don't know how this team gets out of that treadmill otherwise unless you are talking about blowing up the whole thing and starting over.

[yossarian1234]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/11/15/op ... ng-raptors

"Then came a string of games so curiously officiated that the Raptors had no choice but to ask the league (more than once) what was going on."

Thank you! Keep raising this issue and maybe this finally gets corrected.

Also a lot more local media calling for Bargnani to be traded than ever before. Hopefully, they finally get Colangelo to take action.

[T Dot O Dot]

I'm actually very impressed with Ross' floor game

That draft pick isn't where we lost ground, Landry Fields & Bargnani are

And to a certain degree, Jose

I dont care if he scored a triple double, he needs to learn how to pass the ball to the damn wing when DeMar has it going, or throw a routine entry pass

it's ridiculous that he has to control the ball for the 1st 20 seconds of every possession

[yossarian1234]

Haven't seen Ross much in the games I've watched but I'm not as upset with picking him anymore than as I'm about not picking Drummond. We'll see. I just think about lost opportunity. I just don't see this team getting out of mediocrity with the current core. We need more but we don't have the means to add more.

As for Jose, agreed.

Bargnani needs to get the hell out. I don't know how much value Bargnani has in the open market though. Probably not a whole lot but perhaps enough to get us some help at SF.

[sotola]

re - you still have a chance to get a rotation player

Name all the rotation players taken in the early 2nd round on all the teams. and by rotation, I mean the guys in the top 8.

If you find more than a handful I will be amazed. Outside of the obvious like a guy like ginobli (who went that low because they weren't sure he would come to the states), most 2nd rounders simply don't ever pan out.... therefore, it cannot EVER be a waste. Yes, I wish every draft pick we ever made would be a rotation player or all star but the probabilities are small. You know as well as anyone that the higher a player goes, the more likely he is to be a better player. 2nd rounders who become rotation players are not the norm or not even common.

I won't bother addressing any of your other posts or comments since I don't want to waste my time.

[sotola]

As for this team, I think today's game shows that Jose really is best suited for a role off the bench. He can't guard his position at all and a hobbled Rondo made him look foolish. I like his game as a back up but he can't do it full time. I just don't know how many teams are really going to want any of the players we could offer in trades. We have a lot of decent talent, supplementary players, but not guys that you would really be willing to give up something valuable for.... no guys that have a unique characteristic which is lacking from good teams.

Bargnani can be effective when he wants too but that's the problem. dot - you thought he played better when he scored and became ineffective otherwise but I actually think it's the reverse (although with the same end results). I find that when you see him hit the floor and he looks like he's engaged (ie. playing defense, running, banging guys) that he actually ends out playing well on both ends. It would be interesting to see his averages for rebounds/blocks when he scores more than 23 points vs. when he scores less. My guess is they both go up. Depending on your view, dot and I are probably saying the same thing but he hasn't struck me as being interested in the defensive end except for one game.

I honestly can't see a market for either Calderon or Bargnani. You might find a comparable underachiever to swap for Bargnani but I can't see a huge market for Calderon unless a team needs a PG and wants to dump salary next year. Looking at all the teams out there, I don't see too many. and that's the problem Colangelo faces, he has improved the team but it still doesn't have enough good parts to swap for upgrades.

As an aside, one coach that is totally impressing me is Lionel Hollins. Individually I don't like many of the players on the Grizz but he has really maximized the games of quite a few... he has even made Thabeet look like a real NBA player. That is probably one of the better "teams" in the NBA right now and it's a collection of "OK" players.

[yossarian1234]

"Name all the rotation players taken in the early 2nd round on all the teams. and by rotation, I mean the guys in the top 8."

OK, let's see how you try to twist and take out of context this to change subject of argument and put words in my mouth.

Besides the obvious ones like Monta Ellis, Rashard Lews, Luis Scola, Carlos Boozer, Paul Millsap, Varejao, Marc Gasol? And a guy like Gilbert Arenas, who was all-NBA before injury derailed his career?

These guys alone shows you need to do your homework throughout the entire draft including 2nd round.

Then there are...

Kyle Korver, Louis Williams, Andray Blatche, Ramon Sessions, Daniel Gibson, Omer Asik, Matt Barnes, Willie Green, DeAndre Jordan, Ilyasova, Luc Mbah a Moute, Nicola Pekovic, Novak, Glen Davis, Marcin Gortat, Isiah Thomas, DeJuan Blair, Matt Bonner (not now but we all know he's been a roatation guy for years from our own experience), Stephen Jackson, our own Amir Johnson, Earl Watson, Mo Williams, Trevor Ariza...

Not sure if I'm leaving names out but really my point stands, there are enough success stories in 2nd round that you can't just play ignorant and expect to be successful especially if you are Raptors. Not sure why you are limiting it to early 2nd round since my point was that earlier the pick in 2nd round, wider your selection.

I agree that these are the exceptions, but these GMs get paid millions of dollars and part of their job is finding one of these once in a while. Some have more success than others but Colangelo has found exactly zero so far. All he's done is trade the picks away or pick some no-name Euro big that nobody's ever heard of that will never sniff NBA. I never cared for this but I didn't bother criticizing for him because those were near end of the draft but this time, situation is totally different. (early 2nd round, limited means of improving painfully obvious now after years of failures making these selections more valuable)

I mean if it was such a waste of time, why does Colangelo single out picking PJ Tucker (35) thereby missing out on Paul Milsap (47) as one of his biggest mistakes (one of the earlier articles I linked http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/ar ... t-athletes)?

Obviously, it's not just about who you are picking but having the right opportunity for them to show themselves to be worth the investment and on this team, SF has much better chance to do that than PF ever will. I ask again, do you disagree?

[sotola]

Oh I see... by rotation players you mean "EVENTUALLY" since the vast majority of those guys didn't make the rotation for a few years.... I assumed you meant 2nd rounders that make the rotation relatively quickly. If that's the case, why don't we let Acy have a few years before claiming the pick is a waste? and then we can compare him to the bum knee guy playing (or not playing) in Denver?

I don't expect much from 2nd rounders and I expect even less from them immediately.... thats why I am not too fussed about it.

[yossarian1234]

Oh I see... you are just being retarded now. Thanks for clearing that up before I waste any more of time on the likes of you.

[sotola]

Are you eventually going to grow up in life? retarded? You really need to become a man sometime Yoss

[yossarian1234]

I only respond in kind. You need to look yourself in the mirror.

[Bklyn]

You guys are special.

Anyway

Toronto would be a fairly decent team if the games were only 3 quarters.

[AlabamAlum]

I love the sass. I always have. Used to love watching the give-and-take on the NBA threads back on Wxing...btw, are Amar and Doug still posting?

[Bklyn]

Doug (West, not CD) only posts on Facebook (which I don't do), so I only catch up with him, Sam and Greg on text. Amar had a Jazz forum site he maintained or wrote for, but I have not seen hide nor hair of him in years.