The Goat Pen

regardless of what McConnell wants

this would be a completely self inflicted wound by Biden

I guarantee you there are some back room meetings going on right now discussing the very thing I just mentioned and politicians being the opportunists they are are going to plead with Biden for a face saving solution if millions are willing to lose their jobs over this.

I actually applaud those people, I didn't realize that kind of conviction was still strong in America. Its not a choice I would make, nor really understand, but I"m all in not allowing the government to mandate any shit like this to any American.

I might be different if I was 25 years old, but at my age, a few months away from paying off the home, considering moving to a location we actually want to live in, accelerating our retirement savings and trying to help our kids get their footing on post college, the vaccine mandate is not a hill I"m willing to die on.

I'm not applauding conviction based upon irrational behavior.

https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/s ... 197011.pdf

The actual opinion starts on the twelfth page, but the notes / syllabus provide good information.

https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/gop-sen-c ... s-leaders/

Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-La.) said over the weekend that elderly officials in America’s three branches of government should undergo regular cognition tests — but insisted he did not have a particular person in mind when making the recommendation.

Cassidy, a 64-year-old gastroenterologist who was first elected to public office in 2006 and has been in Congress since 2009, told “Axios on HBO” Sunday night that aged members of Congress, Supreme Court justices and top Executive Branch officials should be evaluated each year to ensure they are still mentally sharp.

According to Cassidy, most people begin a “rapid decline” into dotage in their 80s.

“It’s usually noticeable,” he told host Mike Allen. “So anybody in a position of responsibility who may potentially be on that slope, that is of concern. And I’m saying this as a doctor.”

I don't think its irrational at all

at the end of the day we were told that if you are are healthy then this virus has a 99% survivability rate. With that information, why would they feel the need to comply to a vaccination mandate? especially now that we've been informed the vaccine doesn't prevent the virus from occurring in some cases, but lessens the severity of the symptoms. And more importantly, why does the government insist on a vaccine mandate to protect those that are not at risk, if those that are at risk are vaccinated?

I am more concerned about the precedent this sets with the idea our government can make decisions to shut down the economy to address what they define as a public safety issue without a set of formal criteria to determine what a public safety issue is.

"I didn't realize that kind of conviction was still strong in America."

"Conviction" isn't the first word that comes to mind, esp. when all these folks have all gotten multiple mandated vaccines throughout their lives and no doubt have made sure their kids got them too. Most of these people are just butthurt about Trump losing or at the very least just want to "own the libs". That's not conviction, that's stupidity...

eCat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:28 am I don't think its irrational at all

at the end of the day we were told that if you are are healthy then this virus has a 99% survivability rate. With that information, why would they feel the need to comply to a vaccination mandate? especially now that we've been informed the vaccine doesn't prevent the virus from occurring in some cases, but lessens the severity of the symptoms. And more importantly, why does the government insist on a vaccine mandate to protect those that are not at risk, if those that are at risk are vaccinated?

I am more concerned about the precedent this sets with the idea our government can make decisions to shut down the economy to address what they define as a public safety issue without a set of formal criteria to determine what a public safety issue is.

Polio has lower mortality rates and far higher rates of full recovery, but you never complained about your children being forced to receive Polio vaccines.

Here is a blog post by an anonymous person who claims to have a PhD but remains anonymous due to harassment from anti-vaccination lunatics -- which is plausible -- but he does provide links to the data and articles he references. So, there is a decent amount of credibility here. In short, he shows how wrong -- and dangerous -- the "99% survival rate" argument is.

https://thelogicofscience.com/2021/07/2 ... the-point/

A pandemic is a public safety issue. While I agree that we need to eschew further shutdowns unless absolutely necessary, we need to learn to live with the virus, and we can only "live with the virus" if its most dangerous effects are largely neutralized or significantly lessened. The only proven means by which to do that in the quickest, safest, most efficient way possible is vaccination.

if you follow the history of the polio vaccine, there was a huge push back against it, and the government, in order to push for the vaccine had to gyn up the actual risk to the public.

The Fauci of his day actually said that Salk's vaccine was dangerous, and they essentially used the school children to prove the vaccine was effective.

so yea, even though it was before my time, alot of people complained about the vaccine, and in particular the management of the creation of the vaccine that was so poor that thousands of kids were accidentally infected with polio which didn't help the public trust.

I'm not going to argue conspiracy theory on the 99% number - but the bottom line is if you are healthy then the likelihood of death or even intubation in ICU is very small, and being mandated to get vaccinated in that regard is highly suspect in their minds. Biden and Harris didn't do the public any favors by going on record against their getting a fast tracked vaccine.

DooKSucks wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:18 am

eCat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:28 am I don't think its irrational at all

at the end of the day we were told that if you are are healthy then this virus has a 99% survivability rate. With that information, why would they feel the need to comply to a vaccination mandate? especially now that we've been informed the vaccine doesn't prevent the virus from occurring in some cases, but lessens the severity of the symptoms. And more importantly, why does the government insist on a vaccine mandate to protect those that are not at risk, if those that are at risk are vaccinated?

I am more concerned about the precedent this sets with the idea our government can make decisions to shut down the economy to address what they define as a public safety issue without a set of formal criteria to determine what a public safety issue is.

Polio has lower mortality rates and far higher rates of full recovery, but you never complained about your children being forced to receive Polio vaccines.

No, but I have known MANY parents who have complained about their daughter's being forced to receive HPV vaccines. It still doesn't stop the minions of government authority to proceed to stipulate (on their own authority) that the HPV vaccine be mandatory OR ELSE! Sorry. Most parents don't believe their daughter is going to grow up to become a slut.

Mandating vaccination is fine so long as the mandates are not politically biased.

hedge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:10 am "I didn't realize that kind of conviction was still strong in America."

"Conviction" isn't the first word that comes to mind, esp. when all these folks have all gotten multiple mandated vaccines throughout their lives and no doubt have made sure their kids got them too. Most of these people are just butthurt about Trump losing or at the very least just want to "own the libs". That's not conviction, that's stupidity...

at the end of the day if they didn't feel the vaccines they received weren't safe or effective they wouldn't have got them.

its not about Trump losing, hell, Trump is the reason we have vaccines already and he has pushed for people to take it, nor it is a "own the libs"

its really about how poorly this vaccine rollout was (which I guess you can blame on Trump but there are not shortage of people who failed in this regard including our current president and VP), the information available and the inconsistency on how the science kept changing.

If Fauci was a true scientist instead of a propaganda machine, if the CDC had a history of not backtracking on their pubic information releases ,the FDA was more resolute in their accountability to vaccine makers and the media didn't sensationalize medicine like ivertmectin as "horse parasite medicine" then the public would most likely be more on board with the favorable response to taking the vaccine.

"Trump is the reason we have vaccines"

BAHAHAHA!

eCat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:32 pm If Fauci was a true scientist instead of a propaganda machine, if the CDC had a history of not backtracking on their pubic information releases ,the FDA was more resolute in their accountability to vaccine makers and the media didn't sensationalize medicine like ivertmectin as "horse parasite medicine" then the public would most likely be more on board with the favorable response to taking the vaccine.

Unfortunately, his role is based on public policy, NOT science, facts, or common sense. Policy is reinforced by propaganda. Propaganda is predicated on politics.

We've gone down this dark road before with public policy being more important than science or facts. 1980s with HIV/AIDS. C Everett Coop stipulated (as public policy) for everyone to wear a condom. Okay why? He stipulated that everyone could get AIDS and the way to stop the transmission of HIV is with a condom. All propaganda. While what he said was technically true, in the world of reality, it was horseshit. They knew back in 1981, KNEW, that gay men were primarily the targets of AIDS based solely on the fact that gay men are highly promiscuous. Math and science stipulated it was the promiscuous nature of gay men that moved the virus around the community. Gay men routinely swapped up on partners in the bath houses of San Francisco. That is exactly how the filth spread in their community (and JUST their community.) And the gay elite refused to change their promiscuous behavior. Hell patient zero fucked 150 different guys in one year, worldwide (and he had no trouble doing so since he was an international flight attendant.) Instead the gay elite insisted (to protect their behavior AND their feelings) that everyone in the world wear a condom. Reagan may have been right leaning and no great ally of homosexuals but the almost entirely democrat congress of the 1980s WERE allies of the Gay elite and Reagan knew he would have caught hell if he allowed Coop to be honest and tell gay men "STOP FUCKING ANYTHING THAT MOVES!" Shutting down the bath houses would have been a step in that direction but the gay elite did not permit that to happen. So for public health, we got a public policy reinforced by propaganda that was predicated on politics.

Fauci is a propaganda machine and his policy decisions are entirely political. We are going to find out what we REALLY should have been doing (maybe 20 years from now) but for right now, public policy is based on what the democrats in power think is right, NOT what science, facts, and common sense stipulate.

You have the Aids?

Jungle Rat wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:47 pm "Trump is the reason we have vaccines"

BAHAHAHA!

It's an undeniable fact.

"No, but I have known MANY parents who have complained about their daughter's being forced to receive HPV vaccines."

HPV vaccines are not mandatory. Why did you lie, IB?

hedge wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:26 pm "No, but I have known MANY parents who have complained about their daughter's being forced to receive HPV vaccines."

HPV vaccines are not mandatory. Why did you lie, IB?

They are in DC, Rhode Island, Hawaii, and Virginia

https://www.immunize.org/laws/hpv.asp

Why did YOU lie, hedge?

Rhode Island? LMAO...

How MANY parents do you know in Rhode Island, Hawaii, DC and Virginia? I'd guess about zero...

Those 3 states comprise 3.5% of the US population. Take out Virginia and it's less than 1%. I noticed that Virginia just implemented it in July of this year, sorry if I'm not as big a perv as you and don't monitor on a daily basis the HPV vaccine laws in America...

President Donald Trump’s 2020 policies stopped the inflow of roughly 1.2 million foreign workers, according to a report by the business-funded Cato Institute.

“It’s a staggering cumulative reduction [since March 2020]… It’s undoubtedly contributing to America’s historic labor shortage,” tweeted Cato author David Bier.

However, the rollback of government interference in the nation’s labor market has been good for American employees. It has forced U.S. executives to raise employees’ wages, treat their employees with more respect, and also invest in workplace technology to help the employees to get more work done per shift.

But Cato represents the interests of the investors and CEOs who gain from the federal government’s deliberate, wage-cutting inflation of the labor supply. So the Cato report emphasizes the employers’ loss of labor and ignores the offsetting gains for employees and productivity.

“The Biden administration should open the borders now to allow more workers to fill open positions and increase economic growth,” concluded the report’s author, David Bier.
--------------

yep, lets hire more immigrants at minimum wage as opposed to giving wage increases to low skilled American workers where the largest beneficiary will be young African American males and citizen Latinos


fuck the Cato institute's direction. That historic labor shortage has resulted in the biggest wage gains, health benefits and increased quality of life for the American worker than any time in my adult life.