Florida State Seminoles

eCat · Post by **eCat** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:20 pm

you can argue the short term but how can you argue the value of keeping inefficient business operating?

GM is saved by American tax dollars and their big rollout to relieve us of fossil fuel dependency is a car nobody wants at a price nobody can afford...that is without more tax dollars providing a government subsidy.

It may very well be that the millions of people that are un and under employed would benefit from a job market that allows for failure to promote a better solution.

I've waffled on the idea of letting GM go under but the Volt fiasco made me resolute.

For every instance of a government "success" you can't say that without the government involvement we would not have had a better product or alternative produced by the free market.

sardis · Post by **sardis** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:36 pm

All those factories would not have shut down if GM wasn't bailed out. Maybe a few of the inefficient ones, but not most. The demand for autos in America doesn't dramatically decrease if an auto company goes bankrupt. If the government didnt bail out GM they would have just filed chapter 11, just like the airlines do all the time. They'd restructure their debt, or find a buyer for their assets, have the unions restructure their labor deals.....pensions.....retiree health......uh oh....Now you get the picture of why the government intervened...

Bklyn · Post by **Bklyn** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:34 pm

You're talking as if credit was flowing to make it advantageous for a buyer. Your scenario would mean the new owner would most likely be Chinese or Indian.

10ac · Post by **10ac** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Report this postReply with quoteRe: Florida State Seminoles
by eCat » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:31 am

he killed an unarmed kid who was walking home

and his ass is on the streets walking free

this is how riots start

Wow! Just think of the shit storm if he'd chanted "Show your green card" instead of shooting him.

Owlman · Post by **Owlman** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:30 pm

There may be a history of government picking winners and losers but that history doesn't show that Americans were the beneficiary of that approach.

I respectfully disagree. The govt funding that picked railroads over buggy's was significant and created a system of extreme importance to American growth. Americans greatly benefitted.

Owlman · Post by **Owlman** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:34 pm

Maybe a few of the inefficient ones, but not most

That wasn't the argument of Ford who despite not facing bankruptcy supported the bailout of their main competitor due to the anticipated large loss of ancillary businesses that supports both corporations.

But one of the primary problem with the electric car is the problem you have with no charging stations.

eCat · Post by **eCat** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:26 am

sardis wrote:All those factories would not have shut down if GM wasn't bailed out. Maybe a few of the inefficient ones, but not most. The demand for autos in America doesn't dramatically decrease if an auto company goes bankrupt. If the government didn't bail out GM they would have just filed chapter 11, just like the airlines do all the time. They'd restructure their debt, or find a buyer for their assets, have the unions restructure their labor deals.....pensions.....retiree health......uh oh....Now you get the picture of why the government intervened...

Everyone is also operating on the assumption that GM will be new and improved, except the next recession they'll probably be in the same boat - by continuing to make decisions like building a $40K electric car bolstered by the idea that our tax dollars will keep them afloat and encourage buyers.

Yea, the next buyer probably would be Chinese or Asian but just as my Honda I used to drive was built in Ohio, I benefited from a quality made car built by Americans

eCat · Post by **eCat** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:28 am

Owlman wrote:
There may be a history of government picking winners and losers but that history doesn't show that Americans were the beneficiary of that approach.
I respectfully disagree. The govt funding that picked railroads over buggy's was significant and created a system of extreme importance to American growth. Americans greatly benefitted.

and the building of interstates to support the auto demand created the suburbs and killed public transportation ( and the railroad industry) creating a reliance on foreign oil - resulting in us fighting in prolonged foreign wars in the middle east and now paying $5 for a gallon of gas.

Granted, Americans love the public roads and despise public transportation in smaller cities and rural areas but the point isn't what benefits we derived from the decisions that were made but the sacrifices we made or benefits we'll never see because decisions were made for the American public by the government and not the free market. With $5 a gallon gas, an infrastructure of an existing railroad system supporting the creation of many light rail lines would greatly benefit Americans now. Would we have these now had the government pushed for public transportation ? Honestly I doubt it but when you talk benefits to Americans it can be looked at many angles.

sardis · Post by **sardis** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:32 am

Owlman wrote:
Maybe a few of the inefficient ones, but not most
That wasn't the argument of Ford who despite not facing bankruptcy supported the bailout of their main competitor due to the anticipated large loss of ancillary businesses that supports both corporations.

But one of the primary problem with the electric car is the problem you have with no charging stations.

Ford supported the bailout at the time because they felt needed that card in their back pocket, just in case.

And the reason the electric car is not succeeding is not because of a lack of electric stations, it's because it doesn't make economic sense for anyone to pay the premium and they are not fun to drive.

Owlman · Post by **Owlman** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:36 am

That is not what they testified before Congress. They said they supported the bailout because of the effect on their suppliers.

As for the supposed benefits of not doing the interstate highway system, that's just speculation. The reality is the interstate highway system is one of the largest drivers (ok, pun acknowledged) of the biggest economy in the world in the 1950's. There is no evidence that things would be better off in this country without it except as hope based on a ideological theory.

We ignore the amount of innovation that has been created in this country not by the free market alone but by the govt purchasing power and policy in the free market (through war, space etc.)

Owlman · Post by **Owlman** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:39 am

Hmmmmmmmm. Not fun to drive. Based on what?

From U.S. News

Chevrolet Volt Review - What the Auto Press Says

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt ranks 8 out of 19 Upscale Midsize Cars. This ranking is based on our analysis of 28 published reviews and test drives of the Chevrolet Volt, and our analysis of reliability and safety data.

Reviewers agree that the 2012 Chevrolet Volt is one of the best hybrid cars on the market, thanks to its impressive fuel economy.

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt is one of the automotive press’ favorite hybrid cars. Since the Volt has a gas engine that kicks in after the battery dies, they like that there’s no range anxiety that accompanies all-electric cars. Although the Volt is mostly categorized as a hybrid car, some people, including Chevrolet, call it an extended-range electric vehicle. The electric motors, which power the Chevy Volt for an EPA-estimated 35 miles, provide lots of power, and reviewers say they are smooth and quiet. The gas engine is also well-liked by auto reviewers.

Test drivers also like that the 2012 Chevrolet Volt is easy and affordable to charge and has a high-quality, modern interior. Its sporty handling also makes it fun to drive. The Volt isn’t without its faults though. It’s expensive compared with other hybrid cars and even most upscale midsize cars. It also has a small trunk, confusing interior tech and only seats four people.

Overall, test drivers say if you’re shopping for an electric or hybrid car, the 2012 Chevrolet Volt is a great choice because its high-tech powertrain helps make the car very fuel-efficient. Reviewers note that all this plug-in hybrid technology comes with a high price tag though.

Other Cars to Consider

As you cross-shop fuel-efficient cars, add the Toyota Prius Plug-in to your list. The Prius Plug-in is a new Prius model, and like the Volt, owners can recharge its battery at home. The Prius Plug-in gets better fuel economy in gas/hybrid mode, but the Volt operates more efficiently on electric power alone. The Volt also has a longer electric-only range of 35 miles, which is more than twice as far as the Prius Plug-in’s 15-mile range. The Prius Plug-in can be recharged in about three hours using a standard 120-volt outlet, which is much faster than the Volt’s 10-to-12-hour charging time using a standard outlet.

The Nissan Leaf is another car to consider if you’re shopping for a pure electric vehicle. However, the Leaf’s range is limited to 100 miles. Once the battery dies, there’s no back-up gas engine to keep the car going. This makes the Leaf ideal for drivers looking for a car for shorter commutes. Unlike the Volt, the Leaf can’t handle longer road trips though.

Details: Chevrolet Volt

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt is available in one trim level with the option of a couple upgrade packages. For 2012, Chevrolet made the formerly standard navigation and Bose audio system optional, which lowers the base price slightly. Most everything else is unchanged for 2012. See the full list of 2012 Chevrolet Volt specs.
"Overall, we think the 2012 Chevrolet Volt represents an agreeable middle ground between a pure electric vehicle (which is usually limited to about 75 miles before needing a time-consuming recharge) and a standard hybrid (which doesn't offer the all-electric range and speed of the Volt)." -- Edmunds
"Volt is a technological wonder that combines the ability to drive on electric power only, while its gas engine relieves the ‘range anxiety’ often associated with pure-electric cars. Besides that, it's dynamically capable, comfortable for four adults, and includes loads of high-tech convenience features, including pre-heating and cooling of the interior." -- Consumer Guide
"It's fun to drive, practical, good-looking and in a league of its own technically." -- Detroit Free Press

Volt Performance - 9.0 (Excellent)

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt is more fun to drive than most hybrid cars. Additionally, reviewers say the Volt’s electric motors and gas engine combine to give it plenty of power. Read More

Volt Exterior - 8.0 (Very Good)

Car reviewers are divided on the Volt’s looks. Some say it’s handsome, while some say they wish it looked sleeker. View Photos

Volt Interior - 7.3 (Good)

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt’s interior gets high marks from test drivers for its futuristic design and high-quality materials. But the Volt only seats four and has a small trunk, which disappoints many reviewers. Read More

Volt Safety - 9.6 (Excellent)

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt receives the highest overall crash test scores from the federal government and Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Read More

Volt Reliability - 6.0 (Mediocre)

The 2012 Chevrolet Volt reliability score shown is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS). Chevrolet covers the 2012 Volt with a three-year/36,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty and a five-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty.

eCat · Post by **eCat** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:09 pm

who says?

The consumer. Chevy stopped production on it due to lack of sales

aTm · Post by **aTm** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:14 pm

It's not fun to spend $40k

sardis · Post by **sardis** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:10 pm

Unless it's a new Dodge Charger SRT8 which sucks up the gas at 15 mph...

Jungle Rat · Post by **Jungle Rat** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:13 pm

I'll just stick to my Tahoe.

aTm · Post by **aTm** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:14 pm

You mean you guys don't drive luxury cars?

sardis · Post by **sardis** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:16 pm

<<head down>>

I don't even drive the Dodge Charger....I have three kids.

billy bob bocephus · Post by **billy bob bocephus** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:13 pm

Volvo station wagon, eh?

eCat · Post by **eCat** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:01 pm

I have a car that someone steals 5 gallons of gas from 2 nights ago

aTm · Post by **aTm** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:08 pm

So whats the plan to make sure it doesnt happen again? Guns? Spike traps? Security cameras?