The Goat Pen

"They weren't all Nazi's."

They weren't, any more than all the rioters at Ferguson belonged to BLM.

And over on the Trump-Russia collusion hoax, your side has lost the Nation and Slate.

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Digging in and defending this one is an odd choice. Unless, of course, I've been right all along about you.

I'm not going to defend his actions--I think he is an idiot

but I think he was the only choice for economic and governmental direction that has been ignored over the last 20 years

he is right there is fault on both sides--wtf the antiFA were doing there --the Nazis/alt right no nmatter how against their views you are-- had a right to assemble and march the antifa did not have permits and more then their share of troublemakers also

yes white America got trump elected I have no doubt unfortunately Nazi America was part of that electorate just like the antifa vote for the left and can be just as extreme or are going in that direction

and wherever you have two groups like that are within blocks with the media circus surrounding they are going to clash just like the BLM movement gathered and a situation developed in dallas killing 6 cops due to inflammatory rhetoric.

so yeah I have to defend the orange ones economical and governmental reform at a cost that he is a tweeting apolitical fool egotistical arrogant over Hillary who would have continued the country down the road of screw the middle class worker bees citizens in favor of the non middle class non workers

And Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Yeah, but he looked like a clown...oh, sorry.

So I guess we can put Krauthammer (on FOX!!!), the Today Show, and Kasich down as anti-Trump. That's nothing new.

I'm all for free speech. I'm with the ACLU on this one. Let those yahoos talk all they want. The more they say shit like "this city is run by jew communists and criminal niggers", the more marginalized they become. I ain't skert. Of course, I would expect any rational, decent person to denounce these fools, to say nothing of any politician (outside David Duke) to denounce it in the strongest terms, or face the consequences of seeming to sympathize with said fools. Can't say I'm surprised that Trump has done exactly the opposite. Yeah, he kinda denounced hate groups and nazis (really going out on a limb there, eh, Donald?), but in the same breath he says there were undoubtedly some good folks mixed in with them. Well, we can all see how that is playing out. I say just keep giving this guy rope, he's expert at self-hanging. The real problem, it seems to me, is that otherwise somewhat normal folks (like the usual suspects in here) seem to still be supporting the guy. The certified nazi/white supremists/KKK guys, I'm not really too worried about them. But when Prof, toe, BRM, etc., seem to be kinda sympathizing with them, that's more than a little troubling...

But to be clear, I am 100% in favor of all these fools' right to gather and proselytize all they want, and I am against anti-protesters behaving violently towards them...

Here is the body count of recent violence by leftists:

Ferguson, August 2014. 1 dead, 16 injured, 2 shot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_unrest

Baltimore, April 2015. 113 Police officers injured.
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/04/3 ... ore-riots/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Baltimore_protests

Berkeley, April, 2017. 11 injuries.
http://goatpen.net/forums/viewtopic.php ... 42#p157642

Anti-Trump Protests in Chicago, LA, NY: 1 death, 43 injured.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_ ... nald_Trump

The total body count by violent alt-leftists: 2 deaths, 183 injured.
The total body count by violent alt-rightists at Charlottesville: 1 killed (plus two died by accidental air crash), 19 injured.

The total number of deaths are about the same. But it would take 9.6 more Charlottevilles to equal the violence by leftists. Like Trump said, there's blame for all. But that mathematical fact drives the Left crazy.

I denounce violent (physical) reaction to speech (or violent action period) no matter who perpetrates it. Violence is criminal, speech is not. Of course in the history of this country (and the world), it is typically the powerful who have oppressed the weak and the marginalized. The idea (and, happily, the reality) that those people even have a right to express themselves and behave how they please is a very recent phenomenon, a right that has only been gained by generations of struggle. It's understandable, to me at least, that those people (whom you will denigrate as "liberals") are very keen on not seeing a return to the past. Still, behaving as the oppressors of the past treated them (or their kind) is not the answer, but I can understand why they are upset, esp. when the person with the most power in this country, at least symbolically, appears to be ambivalent at best as to their concerns.

At the same time, I also understand that there is undoubtedly a (small, I hope) faction of borderline terrorists on the so-called left that would gladly suppress any type of speech or behavior that didn't suit them. They are no better than the bullies of the past. But I do think they are a small minority, concentrated mostly on college campuses. When they get out into the real world, I suspect many of them usually adopt lawful means of implementing the programs they favor...

I can also understand why you, in particular, as a staunch member of the church are particularly butt hurt over this type of behavior. In the past, it was mainly the church who oppressed anyone who didn't fall in line with its line of thinking, speech and behavior. Now the tide has turned and you long for the days when you and your kind could run roughshod over whoever you pleased, as you did for centuries. Ironically, your kind and your church were at one time the oppressed, but you eventually gained power and then proceeded to behave in the exact same fashion as those who had formerly oppressed you. I don't want to see that cycle repeat itself now that you and your kind been de-fanged, but, human nature being what it is, I'm not sure if that's possible...

The majority of the people at these events are reactionaries. Nutball arch-conservatives that want to dial back the clock so far to "better days" that things would be like they never were, and yes, likely the vast majority of them are racist fucktards. That said...the majority on the other side are revolutionaries, not liberals. When they aren't hiding their faces in ninja-gaiden costumes, they are carrying communist regalia just as much as the idiots on the alt-right are carrying nazi bullshit. And yes, likely there are some dumbasses who are generally not terrible people, but are just swept up in stupidity in the alt-right, just like antifa probably has a few generally good people who only show up so they can fuck some chicks as well. Some of the young people I see in a lot of the pictures and videos of this stuff, pretty much just look like hardcore nerds to me. A type who somehow found a fringe politcal cults on both sides to get swept up in before they found the group out doing cosplay and watching anime and going to cons.

aTm is correct....but pc media/establishment require that only one side be denounced....always.

Whatabout Ferguson. Whatabout Obama...Hillary...Bill. Whatabout Byrd. Jesus.

All the dumbass had to do on Saturday was express grief for the girl and denounce in no uncertain terms the racists who organized that rally. He should never have mentioned another side. WE are the other side ffs...the non-Nazis/skinheads/KKK/white supremacists. We're all anti-fascists, right? Antifa...hello?

So then he does his hostage video on Monday, as Krauthammer aptly puts it. It was good enough to move things along, turn the page, but then he has to let everybody know that he didn't mean it. So that shitshow he put on yesterday is all on him. This gaping maw of a wound is totally self-inflicted. There are no 'whatabouts' that will bandage that baby. Sorry.

crashcourse wrote:I'm not going to defend his actions--I think he is an idiot

but I think he was the only choice for economic and governmental direction that has been ignored over the last 20 years

he is right there is fault on both sides--wtf the antiFA were doing there --the Nazis/alt right no nmatter how against their views you are-- had a right to assemble and march the antifa did not have permits and more then their share of troublemakers also

yes white America got trump elected I have no doubt unfortunately Nazi America was part of that electorate just like the antifa vote for the left and can be just as extreme or are going in that direction

and wherever you have two groups like that are within blocks with the media circus surrounding they are going to clash just like the BLM movement gathered and a situation developed in dallas killing 6 cops due to inflammatory rhetoric.

so yeah I have to defend the orange ones economical and governmental reform at a cost that he is a tweeting apolitical fool egotistical arrogant over Hillary who would have continued the country down the road of screw the middle class worker bees citizens in favor of the non middle class non workers

I can't imagine what Trump could possibly give you to justify caucusing with and defending a bunch of nazis and white supremacists but here we are. Good luck with this.

aTm wrote:The majority of the people at these events are reactionaries. Nutball arch-conservatives that want to dial back the clock so far to "better days" that things would be like they never were, and yes, likely the vast majority of them are racist fucktards. That said...the majority on the other side are revolutionaries, not liberals. When they aren't hiding their faces in ninja-gaiden costumes, they are carrying communist regalia just as much as the idiots on the alt-right are carrying nazi bullshit. And yes, likely there are some dumbasses who are generally not terrible people, but are just swept up in stupidity in the alt-right, just like antifa probably has a few generally good people who only show up so they can fuck some chicks as well. Some of the young people I see in a lot of the pictures and videos of this stuff, pretty much just look like hardcore nerds to me. A type who somehow found a fringe politcal cults on both sides to get swept up in before they found the group out doing cosplay and watching anime and going to cons.

Yeah, I don't think anyone from either side in Charlottesville was risking anything other than their job at a hot dog stand.

Trump Ends C.E.O. Advisory Councils as Main Group Acts to Disband - NY Times

I guess all those CEOs didn't see it as a skirmish between gamers and nerds.

Members of the advisory group had stood with the president in recent months even as he advanced policies they vehemently opposed, including tough immigration policies and withdrawing the United States from the Paris climate accord.

But the president’s equivocating in the wake of the outburst of white nationalist violence in Charlottesville was too much for the C.E.O.s to bear.

“He had put them in a very difficult position,” said Anat R. Admati, a professor of finance and economics at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. “This has ruined his relationships with some of them.”

On Monday, after Mr. Trump’s initial response to the violence, Kenneth C. Frazier, the chief executive of drugmaker Merck, resigned from the manufacturing council. For much of the day Mr. Frazier was alone in his opposition, but that night, two more C.E.O.s, from Under Armour and Intel, left the same group.

Then on Tuesday, three leaders of labor and nonprofit business groups left the council. And in a rebuke to the president, the chief executive of Walmart made public a letter to employees in which he explicitly criticized Mr. Trump’s leadership
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