The Goat Pen

Businesses "discriminate" legally all the time. Here in Atlanta, the movie industry places adds looking for extras who are "young black male" (maybe to play Malcolm X) or "elderly Asian female" (perhaps to play a Chinese Empress). I could go down there and try out, but I know I will never get that part because I am not what they are looking for. I don't care. It doesn't cause me to have an existential crisis.

AA, if you or I walked into the office of the Rainbow Coalition and applied for a responsible job, what would be the chances of being hired? Or we walked into Vogue Magazine demanding a photo shoot, even though we're old codgers, would we get it? If a wheelchair bound person rolled into an Army recruiting center, how would that work out?

I never lost sleep about that. Businesses provide services. Customers negotiate for those services. Sometimes they come to an agreement. Sometimes they don't. If a gay couple wants a florist to do their wedding, but that florist doesn't want to, even if it is because they have halitosis, then there is no agreement and the couple is free to find a vendor with whom they can reach an agreement. It only freaks out the insecure.

Professor Tiger wrote:I ask again: back in his first term as president, when Obama agreed that gay marriage shouldn't even be legal, much less required to be obeyed by all, was he a hate-filled, religious nut job, homophobic bigot whose career deserved to be destroyed?

Your great-great grandpappy had a similar axe to grind with Lincoln. He never got over it either.

"A business owner has the right to sell his services to whomever they want. If they don't want to sell to black people, that isn't discrimination."

Actually, that's the literal definition of discrimination...

Professor Tiger wrote:Businesses "discriminate" legally all the time. Here in Atlanta, the movie industry places adds looking for extras who are "young black male" (maybe to play Malcolm X) or "elderly Asian female" (perhaps to play a Chinese Empress). I could go down there and try out, but I know I will never get that part because I am not what they are looking for. I don't care. It doesn't cause me to have an existential crisis.

AA, if you or I walked into the office of the Rainbow Coalition and applied for a responsible job, what would be the chances of being hired? Or we walked into Vogue Magazine demanding a photo shoot, even though we're old codgers, would we get it? If a wheelchair bound person rolled into an Army recruiting center, how would that work out?

I never lost sleep about that. Businesses provide services. Customers negotiate for those services. Sometimes they come to an agreement. Sometimes they don't. If a gay couple wants a florist to do their wedding, but that florist doesn't want to, even if it is because they have halitosis, then there is no agreement and the couple is free to find a vendor with whom they can reach an agreement. It only freaks out the insecure.

You can't seriously be comparing you not being selected for a Vogue photoshoot as analogous to restaurants and hotels refusing to serve black people.

And the "just find another business that will serve you but don't make the racist business change" is exactly the same thing they said during Jim Crow. "Tell them niggers to find some store owner who wants nigger money!"

This whole argument makes me sad. We're better than this. But I can't argue this any more. Thankfully, times are changing, regardless of a few pockets of holdouts.

"You can't seriously be comparing you not being selected for a Vogue photoshoot as analogous to restaurants and hotels refusing to serve black people. "

I'm pretty sure he's serious...

Now if only innocentbystander would drop in with his appeals to overturn the 19th Amendment this day would be complete

When this man said these words just a few years ago, was he a right wing lunatic homophobic religious nutcase hate monger?

[youtube]4ONvxJOcus4[/youtube]

This is almost exactly what many of us believe today, but the Left freaks come it when we say it.

I'm not sure what the point of that is.

"Well, you may say we are wrong, but would you say Obama was wrong back in 2004??!"

Yes, I would. He was wrong. No doubt.

Please compare the reaction to those words: hysteria today vs. the quiet acceptance then. That''s called a double standard.

I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. Like when the Dem's go postal whenever they THINK someone MIGHT be a racist, but they had no problem with having a former Grand Kleagle of the KKK as their Maiority Leader for decades.

I don't see the hypocrisy. He was for civil unions and not gay marriage back then. Today, there are many people who still feel that way. I see no hysteria against the proponents of civil union - then or now. Did I miss something recently?

The leaders of the Maoist Cultural Revolution hated the idea of civil unions. They saw it as "separate but equal" and would accept nothing short of marriage.

The hypocracy is obvious. Obama was against gay marriage before he was for it. The left gave Obama a pass before he had his conversion experience after his reelection. Even today, the harshest critics hint they can bring themselves to say about the old Obama's position is a whispered"it was wrong." But today, there is no similar "tolerance" for those of us who accept the position of the old Obama. We get the usual parrot speak of racistsexistbigotedhomophobicmisogynist etc etc etc that they never dreamed of calling the old Obama.

"I see no hysteria against proponents of civil unions, then or now."

Okay, let's do a little experiment:

Hey AA, hedge, JD, Tick, etc. I am in favor of civil unions for gay people, that give them all the same legal rights as marriage. It they still can't get married.

Am I now a great guy, or am I a racistsexistbigotedhomophobemisogynist?

Let's sit back and see the results of the experiment.

I disagree with civil unions. I am pro gay marriage. But I don't go nuclear on those who support CUs.

I was for civil unions. Or domestic partnerships, whatever the label. The jump to same-sex marriage doesn't bother me in the least...let gay couples pay the marriage tax like everybody else.

Professor Tiger wrote:The leaders of the Maoist Cultural Revolution hated the idea of civil unions. They saw it as "separate but equal" and would accept nothing short of marriage.

The Maoist Cultural Revolution was a strictly Red China phenomenom btw, merely a nation-state glorification of Mao Ze Dong. Don't wear a badge with Mao's pic on it and you get thrown in prison, that sorta thing.

I know those kind of inane references make sense in your own mind...but maybe that's where they ought to stay.

Sorta like "don't perform gay weddings and your church loses its tax exemption and your pastor gets investigated for hate crimes? Sorta like that? You know that's coming. They already tried something like that in Houston.

If I were king, this would be my proposal. It is currently used by other countries.

Completely separate the civil and religious aspects of marriage. The state would only do civil unions, and these would be the only arrangements that have legal effect - property, inheritance, tax exemptions, all of it. Houses of worship would do marriages as they see fit, but those marriages would have no legal effect outside their own communities.

That seems fair.

I understand government has to step in and tell the various religions they cant regulate or outlaw certain practices we now accept as ok insocety

I think government has overstepped the limits by outlawing any religious displays on govt buildings, and trying to outlaw any reference to "god" in money/judicial/even religious practices like Christmas

always amazes me that the press and the libs will step on your throat if you try to restrict certain garb or desecrate allah in any way or persecute against a muslim from bowing to the mecca multiple times a day--but a nary a word about the fact we don't say merry Christmas, don't have nativity scenes, don't say the pledge of allegiance you might offend somebody.

I don't care what religion you are you should have a right to practice your faith as long as your not hurting anybody --problem is seems like too many what the publicity of acting like they're hurt

I say Merry Christmas, you can say Merry Christmas, I assume, too. Who is keeping you from that? My HoA allows nativity scenes, as well (I don't have one, though). I could say the pledge of allegiance if I wanted (it's kinda creepy and has spotted roots, though)....anyway, Who is keeping you from all of this?

"When this man said these words just a few years ago, was he a right wing lunatic homophobic religious nutcase hate monger?"

By a few years, you mean 12+? Some people's positions evolve. Some people's don't...

And politicians pander. Who knows what his belief is?