The Goat Pen

"So if the Confederacy had won their independence from the Union (and we are all glad they did not), then that would have made their leaders non-traitors, and all those statues of them would then be morally justified?"

I don't know about morally justified, but certainly historically justified. That's always the case. Winners are never traitors. Nobody calls America traitors to Great Britain, but at the time of the Revolution they were certainly regarded as traitors. Hell, if American had lost the Revolutionary War, Benedict Arnold would be a national hero today and George Washington and Co. would all be considered traitors. Again, historically, not morally. Also, I think it's pretty safe to say that if the South had won the Civil War (or at least if the North had just said "fuck it, we're out of here, ya'll can be the confederacy, fuck you"), slavery would've eventually been phased out, probably sooner than later. That wouldn't let the South off the hook morally for having it in the first place, but I bet the plight of blacks for the next century would've been better than it turned out being if slavery had ended organically instead of by war. That's an unprovable hypothetical, of course, but it's hard to see how it could've been much worse for Southern blacks having to live in a culture of butt-hurt, resentful, defeated whites...

hedge wrote:"So if the Confederacy had won their independence from the Union (and we are all glad they did not), then that would have made their leaders non-traitors, and all those statues of them would then be morally justified?"

I don't know about morally justified, but certainly historically justified. That's always the case. Winners are never traitors. Nobody calls America traitors to Great Britain, but at the time of the Revolution they were certainly regarded as traitors. Hell, if American had lost the Revolutionary War, Benedict Arnold would be a national hero today and George Washington and Co. would all be considered traitors. Again, historically, not morally. Also, I think it's pretty safe to say that if the South had won the Civil War (or at least if the North had just said "fuck it, we're out of here, ya'll can be the confederacy, fuck you"), slavery would've eventually been phased out, probably sooner than later. That wouldn't let the South off the hook morally for having it in the first place, but I bet the plight of blacks for the next century would've been better than it turned out being if slavery had ended organically instead of by war. That's an unprovable hypothetical, of course, but it's hard to see how it could've been much worse for Southern blacks having to live in a culture of butt-hurt, resentful, defeated whites...

Had the South won, there's a good chance that the Europeans would have been over here sooner rather than later.

Bah...Harry Turtledove already mapped all this out. If the South won, then the Confederacy would have sided with Britain and France in WWI instead of the victorious Central Powers supported by the United States and thus, obviously, a person like Hitler would have arisen in the South instead of Germany.

Yeah, speculation about what "would've" happened if any major historical event had gone differently is a matter of fiction and fantasy. Nobody can predict the future...

hedge wrote:Yeah, speculation about what "would've" happened if any major historical event had gone differently is a matter of fiction and fantasy. Nobody can predict the future...

How quickly you forget about our erstwhile gambling guru, Sporticus. The man was clairvoyant when it came to gambling.

Had you fools not mocked his greatness, we would have been rich by now.

I would be rich right now if you assholes would just click on some ads every now and then.

Professor Tiger wrote:

bluetick wrote:Honor the slave-holding treasonous cocksuckers all you want - just not on property maintained by my tax dollars. How hard is that?

Then Washington and Jefferson were slaveholding cocksuckers too. Are you going to try and tear down their monuments on the Mall in DC? How far does this silly PC morality farce go?

As befits your style, you ignored the treason part. Aka taking up arms against the United States of America, firing on Old Glory in an act of rebellion. Losers in defense of a heinous institution. At least they didn't hang..

Incorrect. Washington and Jefferson were citizens of a country called Great Britain. They took up arms against their country, Great Britain, numerous times, from Bunker Hill to Yorktown. They fired on the flag of their country, Great Britain (the Union Jack) too, lots of times. That’s as clear a definition of treason as there is.

If the French Navy hadn't showed up at Yorktown, they probably would have been hanged as losers in defense of the heinous institution of independence from the country, Great Britain, according to all the newspapers and historians of their country, Great Britain.

hedge wrote:Yeah, speculation about what "would've" happened if any major historical event had gone differently is a matter of fiction and fantasy. Nobody can predict the future...

You will die tomorrow.

Let us pray

Professor Tiger wrote:Incorrect. Washington and Jefferson were citizens of a country called Great Britain. They took up arms against their country, Great Britain, numerous times, from Bunker Hill to Yorktown. They fired on the flag of their country, Great Britain (the Union Jack) too, lots of times. That’s as clear a definition of treason as there is.

LOL So there are no Washington statues in London. What else ya got, Clouseu?

Well, you certainly seem to be giving a pass to Washington, Jefferson, et. al., in regards to the "slave-holding" part of your accusation of others...

hedge wrote:Well, you certainly seem to be giving a pass to Washington, Jefferson, et. al., in regards to the "slave-holding" part of your accusation of others...

"slave-holding treasonous cocksuckers" - compound modifiers and a noun, so the actual emphasis was on cocksuckers. Were they? Probably not..maybe some.

Had I given it more thought, I would have replaced cocksuckers with 'losers'.

Go back to england then you fuck head

Damn straight.

Professor Tiger wrote:Incorrect. Washington and Jefferson were citizens of a country called Great Britain. They took up arms against their country, Great Britain, numerous times, from Bunker Hill to Yorktown. They fired on the flag of their country, Great Britain (the Union Jack) too, lots of times. That’s as clear a definition of treason as there is.

If the French Navy hadn't showed up at Yorktown, they probably would have been hanged as losers in defense of the heinous institution of independence from the country, Great Britain, according to all the newspapers and historians of their country, Great Britain.

They were subjects, not citizens.

There is a statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square.

Fuck statues anyway. Except the kind depicting fuckng and sucking

Apparently I meant 'Jefferson'.

England has a number of statues of US presidents and memorials. My favorite president, Ben Franklin, was recently honored by the Brits after the completion of the restoration of his London house finished and they give tours.

My second favorite president, Thomas Paine, has a nature trail! My third fav president is Alexander Hamilton. Don't know of any memorials over there of him.