Florida State Seminoles

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by eCat » Sun May 20, 2018 10:34 pm

Cletus wrote:So, both you and Prof agree that shotguns are good for more efficiently killing birds and protect against a nonexistent home threat.

As I said, there isn’t any real need for these things to exist.
According to the U.S. Department of Justice, 1.03 million home invasions occur each year.

Home Invasion: the crime of entering a dwelling and committing or with intent to commit a crime (as assault) while another is lawfully present. Home invasion differs from burglary in that its perpetrators have a violent intent apart from the unlawful entry itself

additionally

a 2013 study ordered by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and conducted by The National Academies’ Institute of Medicine and National Research Council reported that, “Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence”:

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.


nonexistent.....indeed

whether you believe those numbers to be accurate or not, to say it is nonexistent is just absurd. Its the kind of statement that means you aren't interested in facts and just want your solution based on your emotional attachment to the subject
I like the stinky pinky but only up to the first knuckle, I do not want a GD thumb up there--I've told her multiple times and I always catch her when she tries to pull a fast one---it's my butthole for Chrissakes I'm gonna know--so cut out the BS.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by Cletus » Sun May 20, 2018 11:17 pm

There are 125 million households in the US which means that you have a less than 1 percent chance of suffering an invasion. That is a nonexistent threat. If you are really worried about that 0.8% chance that your home may be invaded, get a dog.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by aTm » Sun May 20, 2018 11:27 pm

Guns for protection in my experience is a class issue. The lower classes believe they need guns to protect themselves. 2nd, 3rd 4th generation university educated folks that live in 4000+ SF suburban houses or in rich enclaves seem to think that guns are scary and nobody should have them.

That's probably the entire reason the Democratic Party doesn't come out and publicly state the opinions that Cletus just did, they can go strong against big, expensive recreational shooters like the AR-15 because it's just gonna piss off hobbyists and hunters. You go after handguns and shotguns, and all weapons, you are going to piss off the poor.
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by aTm » Sun May 20, 2018 11:36 pm

Cletus wrote:There are 125 million households in the US which means that you have a less than 1 percent chance of suffering an invasion. That is a nonexistent threat. If you are really worried about that 0.8% chance that your home may be invaded, get a dog.
WTF is this horseshit? 1% every year is a fuckton. There is no way 0.8% of people get shot in a year for example.

The Brady Campaign says 318 people per day are shot in murders, assaults, suicides & suicide attempts, unintentional shootings, and police intervention. So that's 116,000 total people with bullet wounds per year or a 0.03% chance. So what the fuck are you whining about if, in your words, simply getting shot by a gun at all is an obviously "nonexistent threat."
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by aTm » Sun May 20, 2018 11:51 pm

In case anyone has trouble understanding comparison involved in that math, it means that apparently someone is 26 times as likely to be the victim of a home invasion as they are to get shot under any circumstance.
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by Cletus » Mon May 21, 2018 12:02 am

It's still an unacceptable risk. Guns are an unnecessary tool and the fact that 116,000 people are getting shot every year is absurd. How this has become OK is beyond me.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by aTm » Mon May 21, 2018 12:34 am

Absurd to you, perhaps, but to those who don't live in a world where threats to their personal safety are non-existent, and who must live among neighbors they don't trust, and for whom the friendly police officer is not waiting at beck and call a few blocks down the tree lined avenue with a manicured median. For those people, the benefit that guns provide in their society is such that they are willing to make that trade, because they aren't necessarily dumb rubes and hayseeds, either. The risks are understood. You acting like everyone in this country should feel safe and protected simply because you do is what is absurd.
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by hedge » Mon May 21, 2018 8:05 am

I think everyone in here should feel safe and protected according to the standard, even if slightly overstated for effect, that you laid out above. I agree that those stats for home invasion no doubt skew towards certain geographical and socio-economic regions, none of which anybody in here lives in...
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by Toemeesleather » Mon May 21, 2018 8:52 am

Crime nor home invasion was ever considered by the authors of the Bill or Rights.
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by eCat » Mon May 21, 2018 9:09 am

Toemeesleather wrote:Crime nor home invasion was ever considered by the authors of the Bill or Rights.
Home invasion by a man in a red coat with brass buttons

if once in your entire life you are in a position to use a gun as a defensive weapon, then its enough to justify it

worse, if once in your life you *needed* a gun in a defensive position and didn't have it, then you become a statistic

I'm personally not one of these people that think they need to carry a gun for protection, nor am I comfortable with the idea that the man sitting next to me in a theater, bar, grocery store or restaurant has a gun on him and a belief that in an environment he needs to use it.

but I absolutely have a gun easily accessible in my home - what it is doesn't matter. It may rust and never see light before I die, but because I *might* need it, is reason enough.

That rationale has nothing to do with whether someone else owning a gun and intends to use it against me. Its not about matching firepower, its about equalizing a threat. As long as there are people in the United States who are capable and determined to come into someone's home, then I am obligated to own a firearm for my personal protection as my family.

The logic to take that gun away from me as a law abiding citizen while doing nothing to eliminate the threat of people is the very reason it will never happen. It increases my chances of facing an adversary who is stronger and more capable of inflicting harm on me.

I can tell you that on 3 occasions my mother had her home invaded in a period of about 2 years. Twice by 2 young men addicted to opioids and saw them as an easy mark. They didn't intend violence, they came in the home, uninvited with some made up excuse, and while one talked to them, another went to the bathroom, went thru their medicine cabinet and bedroom drawers. After the second time it happened, they had to sit in the living room with a gun next to them. The reason it stopped is because one of the men died of an overdose and the other went to prison because he did the home invasion trick on someone else and lifted some rings and what not while he was there.

The 3rd home invasion was while my brother was home. He was riding his motorcycle around my grandfathers old property and stopped at a creek we used to play at as kids. A woman came out and started ranting at him. He started his bike up and went home. She followed him and came into my mother's home still ranting and accusing him of spying on here. Turns out she had a 1/2 acre of pot growing next to the creek and believed him to either be police or someone that was going to narc on her. Who knows what she and the man she was growing it with was capable of doing if they thought we were a threat to them just for stopping at a creek we played at as kids.

By definition this isn't the classic home invasion but these are people who came into the home of my mother who was her early 70's at the time without any idea of what they were capable of doing. She ended up selling the home my father built by hand and raised 3 kids in because she knew she was either going to get robbed or have to shoot someone.
I like the stinky pinky but only up to the first knuckle, I do not want a GD thumb up there--I've told her multiple times and I always catch her when she tries to pull a fast one---it's my butthole for Chrissakes I'm gonna know--so cut out the BS.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by crashcourse » Mon May 21, 2018 9:14 am

so if you own a home for 10 years does that mean you have a slightly less then 10% chance your home be invaded while you own that home?

going to London next month

800 murders by stabbing last year in London--I hope that muslim mayor bans knives soon

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by hedge » Mon May 21, 2018 9:45 am

"Twice by 2 young men addicted to opioids"

I knew that was coming...
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by Cletus » Mon May 21, 2018 9:46 am

crashcourse wrote:
800 murders by stabbing last year in London--I hope that muslim mayor bans knives soon
This is definitely not true.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by BigRedMan » Mon May 21, 2018 9:56 am

Cletus wrote:
crashcourse wrote:
800 murders by stabbing last year in London--I hope that muslim mayor bans knives soon
This is definitely not true.
Not sure about last year but the trend isn't looking good:


At least 37 people have been fatally stabbed - and 62 overall killed - in London since the beginning of the year.

Met Police records show 37, 443 recorded knife offences and 6,694 recorded gun offences across the UK in the year up to September 2017.

In London, the problem was even more pronounced than the rest of the country, with 12,980 knife crimes taking place in the capital - 2,452 more than the equivalent year.

Four teenagers were stabbed to death in London on New Year's Eve alone, and 22 were killed in March - meaning the capital now has a higher murder rate than New York

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5251268/l ... ey-latest/
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by hedge » Mon May 21, 2018 10:02 am

To what do you attribute the low murder rate in New York?
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by BigRedMan » Mon May 21, 2018 10:02 am

Shotguns are used for many purposes. The main purpose is for hunting and helping control the wildlife population. Home defense is most likely second.

So Cletus, I will ask this. Say those kids are out on the playground or leaving school or something where a large group is together standing somewhere. What if this kid would have driven a Dodge Ram truck and killed just as many? What if he was driving a big ole box truck? Are we to ban those also?

It is easy to point at the tool because it is an object that cannot say anything. Nor can it do anything just sitting there. Someone has to take action with it.

Again, mental health issues and drug addiction in this country need to be addressed at every level.
Sure, I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is, I'm not. I honestly just feel that America is the best country and the other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by hedge » Mon May 21, 2018 10:05 am

Do you count alcoholism as drug addiction?
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by aTm » Mon May 21, 2018 10:19 am

crashcourse wrote:so if you own a home for 10 years does that mean you have a slightly less then 10% chance your home be invaded while you own that home?

going to London next month

800 murders by stabbing last year in London--I hope that muslim mayor bans knives soon
Sort of. Close to that on average. But the statistics will be highly skewed based on other factors. Many people in poor areas probably have it happen way more than that while suburban upper classes are close to zero unless they are involved in criminal activity themselves.
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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by Cletus » Mon May 21, 2018 10:23 am

BigRedMan wrote:Shotguns are used for many purposes. The main purpose is for hunting and helping control the wildlife population. Home defense is most likely second.

So Cletus, I will ask this. Say those kids are out on the playground or leaving school or something where a large group is together standing somewhere. What if this kid would have driven a Dodge Ram truck and killed just as many? What if he was driving a big ole box truck? Are we to ban those also?

It is easy to point at the tool because it is an object that cannot say anything. Nor can it do anything just sitting there. Someone has to take action with it.

Again, mental health issues and drug addiction in this country need to be addressed at every level.
Guns and trucks do not have equivalent value. You do not ban trucks because the benefit they provide far outweighs the risks that come with using them. Whatever tiny benefit that guns may provide (debatable that there is any benefit at all) is dwarfed by the risks that come from their very existence.

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Re: Florida State Seminoles

Post by eCat » Mon May 21, 2018 10:59 am

like AA said, its pretty clear we are never going to agree.

but I'm convinced Cletus' position is a minority and will not be a real consideration until either technology or society greatly changes.

As harsh as it sounds, just like Cletus does the calculus of the value of a vehicle and the tradeoffs, its the same calculus for guns. If you live in the United States where your perception is one where there are people that can harm you then the calculus says personal protection is worth the tradeoff of a mass shooting. Not that we shouldn't try to stop mass shootings, but we need to look at alternatives other than taking away guns from law abiding citizens.

When you talk about perception, I think its important to note that what...1/3 of our television programs are crime programs focusing centrally on murder. America has a fascination with crime and the acknowledgement it exists and often flourishes in this country.

vehicles are a unique situation - within the next 7 years, we'll see a world where you will not be required to have a drivers license for a self driving car, in the next 15 years we'll see a world where auto related deaths and the cost of ownership (as in - many fewer people will own one) will be greatly reduced as driverless networked cars will be optimized to support traffic and avoid collisions. But the reduction in deaths and cost of ownership will not come from some government mandate that infringes on ones right to own and operate a car, it will come from technology and society's acceptance of that technology. But there will always be some dumbass who has a 1995 Dodge Ram 2500 who gets drunk and runs over someone on a sidewalk.

That is living in a free society.
I like the stinky pinky but only up to the first knuckle, I do not want a GD thumb up there--I've told her multiple times and I always catch her when she tries to pull a fast one---it's my butthole for Chrissakes I'm gonna know--so cut out the BS.

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