The Goat Pen

Saint wrote:Capitalism worked better in America between the '50s and late '70s. The cost of living has moved up much faster than the pay scale. That's the biggest problem.

they politicized minimum wage - If the wage had kept up with inflation it would probably be around $18 an hour right now

I believe that was a horrible mistake for two reasons - one is obvious - it created a class of people who can't afford to live, but secondly it allowed business to transfer their basic obligations to provide a quality of life for its employees to the government , and the government paying for quality of life is also politicized.

At the same time, a narrative was created that people who make sandwiches or stock shelves aren't worthy of a living wage - these jobs "were never intended to be career", they are stepping stone jobs for high schoolers/college kids, yet the average age of someone doing this in America is 26 years old. If we live in a country where you work full time and can't live without dependency on the government, I think we are doing something wrong.

the other side of the coin is if we just enforced our immigration laws, focused on merit based immigration and handed out green cards to college graduates, then minimum wage could be largely obsolete, such as now in a strong economy when there aren't enough workers, the minimum wage places - and minimum wage is largely just a starting base as I think most workers now making something above minimum wage - are forced to pay the market rate. With fewer workers available the market rate must be raised. It also leads to innovation just as kiosks that improve wait times at fast food places.

The downside is that in a bad economy, wages would probably fluctuate in the other direction if it weren't for the minimum wage.

The downside is that in a bad economy, wages would probably fluctuate in the other direction if it weren't for the minimum wage.

Yes. During the last recession, you had lots of laid-off parents competing against their own kids for the same minimum wage job.

A high minimum wage sounds great, but there are significant drawbacks. For example, at a typical McDonald's that employs 8 minimum wage employees, a mandatory $15 wage is great for the 7 that received it, but terrible for the 1 person who gets fired to pay for it.

I love it when a guy who brags about being a lifetime federal employee with two federal pensions lectures on free market economics...

" it allowed business to transfer their basic obligations to provide a quality of life for its employees to the government"

From a purely capitalistic perspective, businesses don't have any obligation to provide quality of life for their employees. Their only obligation as a cog in the capitalist machinery is to make a profit. Now then, some of those businesses may come to the conclusion that keeping their workforce happy and well-compensated is the best way to make a profit, but generally this only applies to highly skilled workers. But even then, it's not out of obligation to the employees. Government is the only entity that has an obligation to its employees, i.e., citizens...

I'm in a military town (Fayetteville) and practiced in another military town (Goldsboro), and you see the hypocrisy all of the damn time. My personal favorite is the asshat who receives a military pension, a VA disability check, a civil service/DoD or state pension and a social security check (it happens all of the time here along with tricare/medicare/federal or state employee insurance triangulating to care for all of their medical costs. I don't begrudge those fuckers for utilizing the system to their advantage, but I despise their hypocrisy.


that was worth repeating

If you are fokked up enough to be 100% disabled you cant work in my opinion

If you can work then you are not 100% disabled

hedge wrote:" it allowed business to transfer their basic obligations to provide a quality of life for its employees to the government"

From a purely capitalistic perspective, businesses don't have any obligation to provide quality of life for their employees. Their only obligation as a cog in the capitalist machinery is to make a profit. Now then, some of those businesses may come to the conclusion that keeping their workforce happy and well-compensated is the best way to make a profit, but generally this only applies to highly skilled workers. But even then, it's not out of obligation to the employees. Government is the only entity that has an obligation to its employees, i.e., citizens...

I would suggest it applies to whether there is ample workforce to fill your needs. IBM isn't going to offer a pension and health care to employees if 5 guys are waiting in line to replace the guy that currently has the job. Its not a quality of life issue because they are benevolent, its a quality of life issue because they need someone capable to do the job. Part of that may be some requirement where upper level executives can't get perks not offered to the lower levels as well.


The same is true of a sandwich make or shelf stocker - I see stores offering hiring bonuses now because employment is at 3.9%. Would they offer a hiring bonus, free meals, paid vacation to a job anyone could do if there were 5 guys competing for each job? I doubt it and history has shown that over and over again.

It would also be true if they offered a wage so low the employee couldn't make ends meet - and had alternatives to go elsewhere.

I don't have the belief that any corporation is benevolent. Its all a calculation on what drives business,generates revenue and improves margin. Its exactly why service sector business want the gates open at our border - to flood the market with cheap exploitable labor.

The irony is that for decades the republican voting base has been vehemently anti-immigration , but the republicans ignored them because they are the party of big business.

The democrats, the party of the people were pro immigration even though they knew it depresses wages, because they also know latinos' vote democratic...until they become middle class., then suddenly they are anti-immigration too.

"The same is true of a sandwich make or shelf stocker - I see stores offering hiring bonuses now because employment is at 3.9%."

A buddy of mine had a Pepperidge Farms route back in the day, I filled in for him for a few days one time. Man, in the early morning hours when there's nobody in the store, you can load up your empty Pepperidge Farms box with all kinds of groceries and nobody cares. I ate good for weeks after that gig. So you're right, there are benefits to being a shelf stocker...

crashcourse wrote:I'm in a military town (Fayetteville) and practiced in another military town (Goldsboro), and you see the hypocrisy all of the damn time. My personal favorite is the asshat who receives a military pension, a VA disability check, a civil service/DoD or state pension and a social security check (it happens all of the time here along with tricare/medicare/federal or state employee insurance triangulating to care for all of their medical costs. I don't begrudge those fuckers for utilizing the system to their advantage, but I despise their hypocrisy.


that was worth repeating

If you are fokked up enough to be 100% disabled you cant work in my opinion

If you can work then you are not 100% disabled

Amen. 100% disabled is supposed to be for vets whose legs and skulls were half blown off. Since I am lucky enough to be 0.00% disabled myself, I don't know what constitutes 100% disabled these days. I imagine there are a lot of 100% psychologically disabled vets out there. Some of them deserve that because their minds are really messed up by their war experiences, maybe forever. But unlike limb amputations and TBI's, psychological wounds can be faked. Some might do that, but I'm guessing the fraud rate is the same or less than other social programs.

hedge wrote: I wish your skull was 100% blown off.

beat ya to it.

So you're right, there are benefits to being a shelf stocker...

That must have been nirvana for when you got the munchies.

I just enjoyed stealing...

heh... I like the honesty...a philosophy major has got to find a way to eat somehow.

Well, it beats being a preacher and exploiting people's gullibility and fear...

If I, a federal retiree, am not allowed to express my opinion on free market economics, then you, an atheist, aren’t allowed to express an opinion on religion.

Hedge is shrooming!

Well, much like religion doesn't exist for me, free market economics doesn't exist for you, seeing as how you've sucked off the government tit your whole career (such as it was)...

Professor Tiger wrote:

crashcourse wrote:I'm in a military town (Fayetteville) and practiced in another military town (Goldsboro), and you see the hypocrisy all of the damn time. My personal favorite is the asshat who receives a military pension, a VA disability check, a civil service/DoD or state pension and a social security check (it happens all of the time here along with tricare/medicare/federal or state employee insurance triangulating to care for all of their medical costs. I don't begrudge those fuckers for utilizing the system to their advantage, but I despise their hypocrisy.


that was worth repeating

If you are fokked up enough to be 100% disabled you cant work in my opinion

If you can work then you are not 100% disabled

Amen. 100% disabled is supposed to be for vets whose legs and skulls were half blown off. Since I am lucky enough to be 0.00% disabled myself, I don't know what constitutes 100% disabled these days. I imagine there are a lot of 100% psychologically disabled vets out there. Some of them deserve that because their minds are really messed up by their war experiences, maybe forever. But unlike limb amputations and TBI's, psychological wounds can be faked. Some might do that, but I'm guessing the fraud rate is the same or less than other social programs.

My personal favorite is when they argue “well, there’s two scales for 100% and one of them is if you’re unemployable and the other is if you’re still able to work” or whatever the fucked up reasoning used by the VA is technically called. My second favorite is that if you are a military retiree (ie you have done at least twenty years), you’re guaranteed a fifty percent rating right off of the bat for...wait for it...mother fucking sleep apnea.

Yeah. Welfare is ruining this country: it’s the corporate welfare given to the military industrial complex, VA disability and most corporate handouts....

the reality of capitalism is in order for it to work, there has to be losers, there has to be economic classes

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why would you want a system like that? It's like a teacher grading tests on a bell curve where even if the whole class scores better than 90% some have to fail. Except instead of a test you're fucking around with peoples' lives.

Tree wrote:

the reality of capitalism is in order for it to work, there has to be losers, there has to be economic classes

Couldn't have said it better myself. Why would you want a system like that? It's like a teacher grading tests on a bell curve where even if the whole class scores better than 90% some have to fail. Except instead of a test you're fucking around with peoples' lives.

horrible analogy..does everyone get a 90 because they were just born a human being?

...you’re guaranteed a fifty percent rating right off of the bat for...wait for it...mother fucking sleep apnea.

50% disability for retirees with sleep apnea? Heh... that's messed up alright. My brother-n-law is a doctor that used to do weekly rounds at a VA hospital psych ward. He said that the old guys living there sat around smoking cigarettes and playing cards with their buddies all day. Whenever they saw a lab coat walking down the hall, they'd suddenly dive under the table or behind a potted plant yelling, "INCOMING!!!" He'd talk to them, prescribe them their psych meds, and leave. They'd go right back to playing cards. He said the VA hospital was a great place for them to retire and get away from their wives.

It's like a teacher grading tests on a bell curve where even if the whole class scores better than 90% some have to fail.

Except the whole class is not scoring 90%. A large part of the class is doing things that are virtually guaranteed to score an F - dropping out of high school, never even trying to gain a marketable skill, earning a criminal record, having multiple children without getting married... That's a recipe for personal disaster no matter what your race is.

Professor Tiger wrote:

...you’re guaranteed a fifty percent rating right off of the bat for...wait for it...mother fucking sleep apnea.

50% disability for retirees with sleep apnea? Heh... that's messed up alright. My brother-n-law is a doctor that used to do weekly rounds at a VA hospital psych ward. He said that the old guys living there sat around smoking cigarettes and playing cards with their buddies all day. Whenever they saw a lab coat walking down the hall, they'd suddenly dive under the table or behind a potted plant yelling, "INCOMING!!!" He'd talk to them, give them their psych meds, and leave. They'd go right back to playing cards. He said the VA hospital was a great place for them to retire and get away from their wives.

I guess they never heard of scotch, cigars and golf...