The Goat Pen

Trump. Heh.

This guy. Amirite?

eCat wrote:true, but the concern stems from the desire to grow socialism without any fiscal responsibility

As opposed to the current lack of fiscal responsibility that will benefit a vanishingly small number of people. If we are going to drive this country into financial ruin, might as well do it in the service of creating programs that could actually help people.

Capitalism birthed the middle class, non-existent in history till around 150 yrs ago.

I'm not sure I agree its vanishing - at least not by design, its by choice

A kid that goes to school - any high school and learns enough to score a 27 on the ACT is going to get into any college he can afford offering STEM. Any kid that isn't learning disabled can achieve that goal, regardless of high school. And even for those that end up with a 21 or whatever can still go to a local college.

instead of choosing a school that isn't in his/her affordability range, attend a 2 year school that is accredited, then transfer your credits to a 4 year school, preferably one that has an online program that can help. BTW, when you transfer, your GPA start over again, so you get a second chance at pulling that 3.0GPA

Major in STEM, graduate with a 4 year degree and even with little or no financial support from the family, owe $30K - which is not ideal but is manageable.

Land a $60K year a job out of school - which again, is also manageable, in the midwest, plains or south.

Welcome to the middle class at the age of 23

OR

go to a vocational or trade school with a 2 year program, enter into an apprentice program, 5 years later you are pulling in $70K with a tradecraft job that is in demand and will never be outsourced or automated - maybe owe $15K on loans.

again, Welcome to the middle class at the age of 25

OR

join the military for ROTC, graduate in 4 years, serve 6 years, opt out with a degree owing $0 - welcome to the middle class at the age of 28. (or stay in the military -welcome to retirement at the age of 44)

Its obtainable - and there is no barrier to entry for any able bodied American citizen to do so, assuming they are dedicated to achieving that goal. There is nothing Pollyanna about it.

I have no problem paying a living wage to someone working an entry level job, but we have to get away from this idea that middle class is unobtainable for Americans, and therefore we have to mandate that our government fill in the gap to move those who aren't achieving it. America is equal opportunity, not equal results.

Silence, you racist sexist bigoted homophobe!

Fat gubmint pensions are a great idea. Ask anyone who has one.

Ask me. They're great.

So great, in fact, I got two of them.

Professor Tiger wrote:Ask me. They're great.

So great, in fact, I got two of them.

I love it when people who receive government pensions (often multiple pensions) and social security bitch about how much the Democrats spend.

I'm in a military town (Fayetteville) and practiced in another military town (Goldsboro), and you see the hypocrisy all of the damn time. My personal favorite is the asshat who receives a military pension, a VA disability check, a civil service/DoD or state pension and a social security check (it happens all of the time here along with tricare/medicare/federal or state employee insurance triangulating to care for all of their medical costs. I don't begrudge those fuckers for utilizing the system to their advantage, but I despise their hypocrisy.

I do family law, so I see the financials. I see folks who are "100% disabled" being given government jobs paying just as much (if not more) than their military jobs upon retirement, and they're doing the same fucking thing (often in the same fucking office).

ETA: Yes, I know that in the screwed up world of "VA Math" and "VA Ratings" that 100% disabled has multiple meanings with regards to employment, but hell, if you're "100 %" and "employable," you're still getting $3,100.00 or so per month, tax fucking free.

maybe we should elect people who put a stop to it

Giving away money to old assholes and grannies is how a politician gets elected. 70-80% voter turnout.

Trump < Nixon

eCat wrote:maybe we should elect people who put a stop to it

Conservative voters have tried that, by voting Republican, dozens of times. It never, ever works. Including the current GOP controlled House, Senate and White House, who recently passed into law the most fiscally abominable budget in history. (Attention, DS, to the following statement by Professor Tiger:)

Republicans are AT LEAST as fiscally irresponsible as the Democrats, maybe even more. The difference is, the Democrats are honest about their fiscal policies. For example, Bernie is out there promising free health care, free college, and a government job to everybody. Of course, this is mathematical insanity, but at least he is forthright and honest about it.

But starting with Reagan, Republicans have been campaigning on fiscal responsibility and promising less government spending. But as soon as they get to Washington, they do the opposite. The GOP is a giant steaming heap of fiscal hypocrisy. The ONLY fiscal hero in my lifetime was a Democrat, Bill Clinton. He actually BALANCED the federal budget, which is considered utterly impossible today.

I've been saying this for years. If you want, I can quote myself (even if it pisses off Tick).

THIS IS IT!!!

A federal judge just dropped a great big turd in the TDS-Mueller punch bowl.

"You don't really care about Mr. Manafort,” U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III told Mueller’s team. “You really care about what information Mr. Manafort can give you to lead you to Mr. Trump and an impeachment, or whatever." "That's what you're really interested in," said Ellis, who was appointed by President Ronald Reagan.

Mueller's prosecutors will have to turn over a full, unredacted version of the August 2 memo that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein used to describe the criminal allegations Mueller's team could investigate, Ellis ordered. The judge said he would like to see the full memo, which prosecutors submitted to the court in Virginia and in Washington, DC, for another case against Manafort with more than a page of redactions.

"We don't want anyone in this country with unfettered power. It's unlikely you're going to persuade me the special prosecutor has power to do anything he or she wants," Ellis told Dreeben.

He summed up the argument of the Special Counsel’s Office as, "We said this was what [the] investigation was about, but we are not bound by it and we were lying."

He referenced the common exclamation from NFL announcers, saying: "C'mon man!"

Dick's Sporting Goods decided to signal their virtue by no longer selling guns. Fine. That is their right as a private company.

But now....

Dick's Sporting Goods hires lobbyists on gun control

http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/ ... un-control

Here's why Dick's is doing that:

Dick’s Sporting Goods shares tumble on dismal holiday sales
Dick's Sporting Goods says same-store sales fell 2 percent during the fourth quarter.
Earnings for the holiday period slightly top analysts' expectations, but revenue comes in short.
According to CEO Ed Stack: "Margins remained under pressure, however the decline was less than we anticipated."

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/13/dicks-s ... -2017.html

Dick's is losing tons of business to Bass Pro Shop, Cabella's, etc. because of their anti-gun stance. Now, instead of thinking, "Maybe we should rethink that decision that is causing us to lose money," their response is, "If we aren't going to sell guns, NOBODY should be allowed to sell guns."

What a bunch of lady parts.

eCat wrote:I'm not sure I agree its vanishing - at least not by design, its by choice

A kid that goes to school - any high school and learns enough to score a 27 on the ACT is going to get into any college he can afford offering STEM. Any kid that isn't learning disabled can achieve that goal, regardless of high school. And even for those that end up with a 21 or whatever can still go to a local college.

instead of choosing a school that isn't in his/her affordability range, attend a 2 year school that is accredited, then transfer your credits to a 4 year school, preferably one that has an online program that can help. BTW, when you transfer, your GPA start over again, so you get a second chance at pulling that 3.0GPA

Major in STEM, graduate with a 4 year degree and even with little or no financial support from the family, owe $30K - which is not ideal but is manageable.

Land a $60K year a job out of school - which again, is also manageable, in the midwest, plains or south.

Welcome to the middle class at the age of 23

OR

go to a vocational or trade school with a 2 year program, enter into an apprentice program, 5 years later you are pulling in $70K with a tradecraft job that is in demand and will never be outsourced or automated - maybe owe $15K on loans.

again, Welcome to the middle class at the age of 25

OR

join the military for ROTC, graduate in 4 years, serve 6 years, opt out with a degree owing $0 - welcome to the middle class at the age of 28. (or stay in the military -welcome to retirement at the age of 44)

Its obtainable - and there is no barrier to entry for any able bodied American citizen to do so, assuming they are dedicated to achieving that goal. There is nothing Pollyanna about it.

I have no problem paying a living wage to someone working an entry level job, but we have to get away from this idea that middle class is unobtainable for Americans, and therefore we have to mandate that our government fill in the gap to move those who aren't achieving it. America is equal opportunity, not equal results.

You're falling into the trap that all righties do which is to look only at the individual level. It's drummed into our heads over and over from birth that everything is reduced to personal responsibility yet the number of shitty jobs with minimal benefits and retirement is at an all time high and has nothing to do with personal responsibility. If everyone were suddenly 100% personally responsible are you under the impression that all these millions of dead end jobs would magically disappear? The right wants to zoom way in to the level of Joe Blow even though the only way to understand complex systems like economies lies at the macro level. It's a big game of musical chairs and the number of people without chairs or with really crappy ones that are falling apart when the music stops is defined by the system and which laws are passed and not passed. If everything was strictly meritocracy, which is the big lie of capitalism, there would have been no need to legalize and normalize bribery of every political office up to and including the POTUS. To talk about PR is ultimately to have a discussion about which X number of people will get those few decent chairs that are up for grabs, which is not a meaningful discussion.

not at all

the reality of capitalism is in order for it to work, there has to be losers, there has to be economic classes

but the idea that the middle class is cut off for people is wrong. Its disappearing but not because there aren't opportunities. Its changing because people choose to work at starbucks as opposed to go into STEM or the vocational route.

Capitalism worked better in America between the '50s and late '70s. The cost of living has moved up much faster than the pay scale. That's the biggest problem.

Are you saying the rent is too damn high?

Errthang too damn high!