The Goat Pen

hedge wrote:"here is the difference though. Paying a player doesn't change his status as a student athlete."

It's rich hearing a UK fan talk about "student" athletes...

I get it but we're not defending bunny classes here.

a college kid is a student athlete - the assumption is that no matter where he goes, he's going to attend classes and meet the same requirements of all other students.

yes, you entice him with great facilities or promises of glory or millions in the NBA, and you may even go beyond that which is permitted

But at the end of the day, no matter where he goes, he's still a student athlete - regardless of whether he was given a new lexus or a his momma got a new job doing nothing

except at UNC - where he was just an athlete - and to make it worse - in order to say he met the same requirements of all other students, you just didn't commit academic fraud with athletes, you did it for the entire student body - just to keep the athletes off the radar and keep the money rolling in.

regardless of how rich it is that any program is talking about it - we paid a very heavy price for what is in comparison a very small transgression in regards to UNC. And so has many other programs.

UNC needs to be burned to the ground.

UK has a bit of an unfair advantage in that the entire school is a case of academic fraud.

Cletus wrote:UK has a bit of an unfair advantage in that the entire school is a case of academic fraud.

don't hate just because we've perfected it.

It's not surprising that you are focusing on the athletes being students as the most important aspect of college athletics, rather than the idea that they are supposed to be amateur athletes, i.e., not paid. I suspect if the shoe was on the other foot and UK had been busted back in the late 80's for academic issues and now UNC was being investigated for paying players, your priorities would be reversed. But that's understandable. Bottom line is, almost none of these student athletes would ever get admitted to their schools (even at UK) if they weren't playing football or basketball, so they're all getting special treatment in regards to academics from the get go. I know a lot of people who took AfAm classes even when I was there b/c they were easy. I took a summer trip to England, we basically went around and looked at castles and went to a few plays and I got 6 hours worth of A's, and would've gotten more if I'd signed up for classes under those two professors when I got back to Chapel Hill.

I suspect that anybody who plays football or basketball at any major D1 school is probably going to be doing better financially when they leave school than the average college graduate, and I'm not counting the very small percentage that go on to play pro ball. If that is the case, then did the school let them down by not making sure they knew the intricate details of the French Revolution or they couldn't identify the artist if shown a series of Renaissance paintings? Do you really remember anything you learned in college, esp. if you got a liberal arts degree?

hedge wrote:It's not surprising that you are focusing on the athletes being students as the most important aspect of college athletics, rather than the idea that they are supposed to be amateur athletes, i.e., not paid. I suspect if the shoe was on the other foot and UK had been busted back in the late 80's for academic issues and now UNC was being investigated for paying players, your priorities would be reversed. But that's understandable. Bottom line is, almost none of these student athletes would ever get admitted to their schools (even at UK) if they weren't playing football or basketball, so they're all getting special treatment in regards to academics from the get go. I know a lot of people who took AfAm classes even when I was there b/c they were easy. I took a summer trip to England, we basically went around and looked at castles and went to a few plays and I got 6 hours worth of A's, and would've gotten more if I'd signed up for classes under those two professors when I got back to Chapel Hill.

I suspect that anybody who plays football or basketball at any major D1 school is probably going to be doing better financially when they leave school than the average college graduate, and I'm not counting the very small percentage that go on to play pro ball. If that is the case, then did the school let them down by not making sure they knew the intricate details of the French Revolution or they couldn't identify the artist if shown a series of Renaissance paintings? Do you really remember anything you learned in college, esp. if you got a liberal arts degree?

I don't think so because UNC has touted itself as this superior academic school and bastion of integrity for decades.

Everyone just assumes these gets kid benefits including tutors and bunny classes, but this isn't what this is about. This is about creating an entire program geared toward providing the athletes a path to playing - by not just dumbing down the education requirements, but removing them entirely.

Cletus is taking shots at UK, but UK has never stood up and pronounced they were superior to other programs due to their academics and doing it "the Kentucky Way". To make it worse, Carolina used that as a club to bludgeon anyone who questioned their ethics on the subject.

The hubris and arrogance displayed by UNC for decades is exactly why people want their pound of flesh.

It may not happen but at least Carolina will be forever linked to having the worst scandal in NCAA history. I'm not sure anyone can ever beat it.

Penn State and Baylor have a pretty good lead in the worst scandal race.

UK only paid players during the Hall and Sutton years during the 70's and 80's? I guess those probations during the Rupp era--including not having the 1952-1953 season cancelled due to point shaving--don't count...

Admittedly, UNC had a some issues with point shaving, but it wasn't even close to that shit...

"I don't think so because UNC has touted itself as this superior academic school and bastion of integrity for decades."

No doubt it's a black eye to our academic reputation, but I'm pretty sure it's taken for what it is. UNC is still highly rated and highly regarded in terms of overall academics. The vast majority of applicants that get turned down at UNC would be accepted at UK or pretty much any SEC school save Vandy, and in fact that's exactly what's happening. Tons of kids around here who would've gotten into UNC back in the day are all going to SEC schools now, mostly USC, Ole Miss (for some reason) and Georgia. So yeah, the whole AfAm thing is embarrassing, but I don't think it's hurt UNC from an academic standpoint, not in any lasting way, anyway...

DooKSucks wrote:UK only paid players during the Hall and Sutton years during the 70's and 80's? I guess those probations during the Rupp era--including not having the 1952-1953 season cancelled due to point shaving--don't count...

Admittedly, UNC had a some issues with point shaving, but it wasn't even close to that shit...

ok, yes, and we paid a heavy price for it.

this isn't a UK is innocent rant.

and for the record, I didn't arrive at the academic fraud is the cardinal sin rant.

I used to believe that paying a player( well OK, hiding a murder or rape is the worst) was the worst thing you could do.

It was the UNC fans that convinced me years ago before any of this came to light that academic integrity is the biggest sin of all. Of course at the time they were throwing it at me in regards to UK and it never occurred to them that UNC would be facing much worse scrutiny.

At UK, Calipari has gone the longest he's ever gone without getting in trouble. I'm betting his streak ends soon considering he's won just 1 national title in that time with what amounts to an NBA All-Star team. Desperation must be setting in.

eCat wrote:and for the record, I didn't arrive at the academic fraud is the cardinal sin rant.

I used to believe that paying a player( well OK, hiding a murder or rape is the worst) was the worst thing you could do.

It was the UNC fans that convinced me years ago before any of this came to light that academic integrity is the biggest sin of all. Of course at the time they were throwing it at me in regards to UK and it never occurred to them that UNC would be facing much worse scrutiny.

That was the biggest sin at that time. It no longer matters. Try to keep up.

Saint wrote:At UK, Calipari has gone the longest he's ever gone without getting in trouble. I'm betting his streak ends soon considering he's won just 1 national title in that time with what amounts to an NBA All-Star team. Desperation must be setting in.

he is losing the fringe UK fans. After lasts nights game instead of being concerned that his team of all stars almost lost to a horrible Mizzou team, he chose to go on a rant about how any NBA team that passes on Bam is going to regret it. Its so transparent at this point.

There's been some debate around here about what college coaching jobs are "good" jobs, as in NC State isn't a good job. Any job is a good job if you win and no job is a good job if you don't. Ask Doherty or Gillespie if UNC or UK is a good job. Fans might push for more than is reasonable in those places but, unless you're a complete fuck-up, you're going to win at UK or UNC and let the title years come when they do.

I think Cal has a good grip on that part of it. Of course, I still think that little shit has got something going on that will come to light eventually.

Saint wrote:There's been some debate around here about what college coaching jobs are "good" jobs, as in NC State isn't a good job. Any job is a good job if you win and no job is a good job if you don't. Ask Doherty or Gillespie if UNC or UK is a good job. Fans might push for more than is reasonable in those places but, unless you're a complete fuck-up, you're going to win at UK or UNC and let the title years come when they do.

I think Cal has a good grip on that part of it. Of course, I still think that little shit has got something going on that will come to light eventually.

Some of the fans are just unreasonable because he gives so much rope to his NBA prospects. UK has two seniors on the team that could be 10-15 point a night contributors but he won't give them any time because he has to play his stud freshmen

otherwise he won't get stud freshmen to replace them next year.

its a vicious cycle he's created and fans are starting to realize that while we're definitely in a better place than we've been in 20 years, we're not going to go on a run of titles.

It's interesting that senior-laden teams seem to be better positioned to win titles (at least last year and this year). I think it takes a special group of OADs to win like that UK team that went all the way. Duke 2 years ago was pretty good but they wouldn't have beaten Kentucky, which of course beat itself vs. Wiscy.

There was a recent story in the Raleigh paper comparing Roy to K along the lines of recruiting. Roy plainly said that he isn't following a philosophy of recruiting 3 or 4 year players, it's just that all the top-shelf recruits are shunning UNC over the NCAA thing. He said he's offered just about every top 10 player the last few years but hasn't landed any. I think it's just worked out for him that he's had good enough players who, once they stayed and developed, have meshed together into a pretty good team. I don't think there's any coach out there who would turn away a top 10 player unless he was a load of trouble. A lot of UNC fans are saying that Duke and UK run glorified AAU programs and it's true to an extent but the UNC coach is basically saying he would be happy to have that kind of program if he could only get those players.

I think a program like Kentucky could find a happy medium of a group of OADs with some good players who aren't going to be first-round draft picks and will stay. Of course, you have to get them to play together, something that Duke has had difficulty doing this year. Cal just seems like he wants to load up and play the most talented kids instead of looking for the right combination. Of course, I don't really watch many UK games so that may be an incorrect perspective.

Cal is delivering final fours.

After living thru the Tubby years I"ll never complain about that.

You need a Darius Miller or a kid like Jackson - someone that has steady improvement and knows how to play hard every night.

Cal won't get that kid unless he's a Kentucky native that will tolerate being recruited over and hidden on the bench for 3 years.

I get it now. Obama is your Tubby.

Did you see the video of Pitino losing his shit with the UNC fan at halftime?

I can't imagine what this guy said that tee'd Rick off but he was unhinged.

Didn't see but there's a veritable buffet of shit to say to Pitino to piss him off.