The Goat Pen

"its all about power"

Well, that's what they say, but I think it's about the sex too. But again, I'm not sure what kind of power Louis CK is expressing by wanting to jack off in front of women, but not forcing them to stay and maybe even feeling ashamed about it later. There's something going on there besides a power trip...

My sons best friend in with this group when this happened.

He said after the guy killed himself, they pretty much left them alone and boot camp was nothing for them.

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A Marine Corps jury on Friday is deciding whether a drill instructor should be sentenced to military prison time for choking, punching and otherwise tormenting recruits, especially Muslims, one of whom eventually hurled himself to his death down a stairwell.

The eight-man jury at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, also could sentence Gunnery Sgt. Joseph Felix to financial penalties and a dishonorable discharge.

The jury on Thursday convicted the 34-year-old Iraq veteran of maltreatment of recruits at the Marine Corps' Parris Island, South Carolina, boot camp. The jury of five sergeants and three officers determined that Felix punched, kicked and choked more than a dozen recruits, zeroing in on three Muslim-American military volunteers he insulted as "terrorist" for special mistreatment.

Felix also was convicted of drunk and disorderly conduct and making false official statements for lying to investigators about his actions.

More than three dozen criminal counts described Felix as a central figure in an abusive group of drill instructors at Parris Island.

After the March 2016 suicide of one of the three Muslim-American recruits Felix targeted, a hazing investigation led to charges against Felix, five other drill instructors and the training battalion's commanding officer. Eleven others faced lesser, administrative discipline.

easy to see why you wouldn't feel wealthy making $180K a year and living in a $600K home. Used to be the top end home for them would be $450 and that would have been considered a stretch. Unless they had a monster down payment they are north of 35% of their net income for housing alone.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 8890c4b77a

speaking of not feeling wealthy, after filling out the FAFSA, our government has determined that 25% of my net should go toward my contribution for my children's education.

But golf course owners are getting a tax break so it's all good.

I really don't have a problem with the wealthiest people getting a tax cut

When 40% of the population isn't contributing any significant amount in the scheme of taxes, I don't understand the logic that make people think a tax cut *wouldn't* be for the people that pay in the most.

Is the logic that we're going to increase the numbers of people who don't pay taxes and that's a good thing?

Now if we're talking about the logic of decreasing taxes during times of deficit spending, I believe that's a reasonable conversation. That said it would seem that putting a cap on mortgage deductions at $500K is a direct tax on those wealthiest people which is why that $180K people living in a house they shouldn't buy are bitching.

Why don't renters get a tax break?

hedge wrote:Why don't renters get a tax break?

why can't I deduct interest on a credit card?

"stop illegal immigration so that the American worker is valued and will be in demand to the point that a guy making a sandwich working 40 hours a week will be paid a living wage."

Agree. That's a standard lefty position and always has been. Problem is you're declaring war on the rich. Also importing poor folks to work for cheap and buy our mass produced crap is a big part of how our scam economy works. The idea that we would only take in the best and brightest is a nice ideal but you also need an underclass to get paid less than they deserve if you want the guys at the top (the ones who designed this whole mess) raking in more than they deserve.

"Stop free trade and focus on fair trade agreements"

Uh, once again you're waging war on the billionaires there. It's not going to happen. Or maybe this ridiculous tax cut for the rich Trump just passed (so much for draining the swamp, eh?) is the tit for tat to pay for a redesign of trade policies you speak of. Would be nice if the little guy gets something out of this anyway.

"the basis of Adam Smith economics where countries will be buying goods and services from us at comparable or at least reasonable rates that we do from them, increasing our exports and the quantity of goods made in this country, and finally stop the government from creating bubbles in housing, education, health care, and wall street so that the price of these goods and services are more reflective of the American taxpayers ability to buy them."

Agree with all of that. Those are all lefty positions and that stuff all declares war on the oligarchs. Good luck stopping bubbles too. You're going to need Glass Steagall and Dodd Frank on crack to even begin with that. Bubbles and busts are an intrinsic part of our economy. So is taking the inevitable pain out on the backs of the masses.

"So you tell me , in the end , whats more compassionate - creating an environment where an American born in this country can get a job with a basic high school education, get paid a wage where he/she is at least tax neutral and can then afford to purchase a home, a car or go to college without being completely dependent on the government for a handout or your approach where a politician creates a handout by taxing the wealthy and transferring his wealth to the poor and the handout process is administered by bureaucrats and policy is crafted by lobbyists ?"

You're pigeon holing me into a position that I didn't take. Remember, I said *If* you want a system that creates the kinds of outrageous wealth disparities that we are seeing, you need a robust network of social programs and wealth redistribution through taxation of the billionaires to keep the folks at the bottom afloat. It's not my first choice, as this type of system inherently creates strife. I'd rather have something like you speak of that distributes wealth a little more fairly in the first place, so you don't need redistribution. I think most Americans would. We appear to both be lefties now. Hello, Comrade.

"I'm seeing first hand the empty threat of automation to fight living wages"

Big picture. Over the last 40 years the promise that robots and computers would relieve us of arduous work has been broken. Another one of those Friedmanesque theories that sounded great on paper but didn't pan out. People are working longer hours of arduous work today than ever before. But this is another topic for another time.

"I notice in your post talking up the government's responsibility to be compassionate for the less fortunate you've yet to touch on the debt."

The debt (and its annual servicing) is a huge concern. I'm not an economist. Best I can tell our debt is still being purchased at generally the same interest rates it has been for a while, so we seem to be okay for now. By the way these tax cuts on the rich, you know the ones that the system has been kind enough to allocate all the money to, aren't helping the debt situation any. At least Bill Clinton and Obama, despite turning out to be failed demagogues who ultimately kowtowed to the corporate elites, tried to do the right thing and slip in small tax hikes on the rich.

"I'm not saying Trump is a genius."

Obviously not. I don't believe he's as big of a dope as he seems though. Just keep in mind he's a guy who kept books of Hitler's speeches on his nightstand, and he's smart enough to have figured out (or at least listened to Steve Bannon) that owning the media cycle can consistently take you a long way. You just need to understand he's not here to drain any swamps but to fill them with his own people. Letting an investment banker take over the Fed and an Exxon CEO take over the State Dept should tell you this.

"Matter of fact every free trade globalist would have told you that threat of tariffs would be a horrible solution that would lead to a trade war."

You're right. Trump, in the unlikely event that he even makes good on his trade promises, is going to find out that his ideas of manipulating trade have a lot more problems than his glib comments on the campaign trail seemed to understand. Once you jump down the rabbit hole of free trade, you can't just climb back out on a whim. Trade wars have historically escalated into military wars.

if a smaller, less intrusive government with a slant toward nationalism is a leftist concept, I'm fine with that

never seen it come from a democrat in the last 40 years but if you say so.....

The Dems have been right of center since Reagan (unless you allow the establishment to redefine the center as being relative to the two parties, in which case the terms left and right are meaningless). Not sure about Carter. He was the last President to not get rich after leaving the White House, which is a good thing. On the other hand he continued the semi-genocide in East Timor that Ford started, so his foreign policy was certainly in line with the kind of nastiness that we've come to expect today.

Trump is really showing that "America First" spirit on this trip in Asia.

Tree wrote:"stop illegal immigration so that the American worker is valued and will be in demand to the point that a guy making a sandwich working 40 hours a week will be paid a living wage."

Agree. That's a standard lefty position and always has been. Problem is you're declaring war on the rich. Also importing poor folks to work for cheap and buy our mass produced crap is a big part of how our scam economy works. The idea that we would only take in the best and brightest is a nice ideal but you also need an underclass to get paid less than they deserve if you want the guys at the top (the ones who designed this whole mess) raking in more than they deserve.

"Stop free trade and focus on fair trade agreements"

Uh, once again you're waging war on the billionaires there. It's not going to happen. Or maybe this ridiculous tax cut for the rich Trump just passed (so much for draining the swamp, eh?) is the tit for tat to pay for a redesign of trade policies you speak of. Would be nice if the little guy gets something out of this anyway.

"the basis of Adam Smith economics where countries will be buying goods and services from us at comparable or at least reasonable rates that we do from them, increasing our exports and the quantity of goods made in this country, and finally stop the government from creating bubbles in housing, education, health care, and wall street so that the price of these goods and services are more reflective of the American taxpayers ability to buy them."

Agree with all of that. Those are all lefty positions and that stuff all declares war on the oligarchs. Good luck stopping bubbles too. You're going to need Glass Steagall and Dodd Frank on crack to even begin with that. Bubbles and busts are an intrinsic part of our economy. So is taking the inevitable pain out on the backs of the masses.

"So you tell me , in the end , whats more compassionate - creating an environment where an American born in this country can get a job with a basic high school education, get paid a wage where he/she is at least tax neutral and can then afford to purchase a home, a car or go to college without being completely dependent on the government for a handout or your approach where a politician creates a handout by taxing the wealthy and transferring his wealth to the poor and the handout process is administered by bureaucrats and policy is crafted by lobbyists ?"

You're pigeon holing me into a position that I didn't take. Remember, I said *If* you want a system that creates the kinds of outrageous wealth disparities that we are seeing, you need a robust network of social programs and wealth redistribution through taxation of the billionaires to keep the folks at the bottom afloat. It's not my first choice, as this type of system inherently creates strife. I'd rather have something like you speak of that distributes wealth a little more fairly in the first place, so you don't need redistribution. I think most Americans would. We appear to both be lefties now. Hello, Comrade.

"I'm seeing first hand the empty threat of automation to fight living wages"

Big picture. Over the last 40 years the promise that robots and computers would relieve us of arduous work has been broken. Another one of those Friedmanesque theories that sounded great on paper but didn't pan out. People are working longer hours of arduous work today than ever before. But this is another topic for another time.

"I notice in your post talking up the government's responsibility to be compassionate for the less fortunate you've yet to touch on the debt."

The debt (and its annual servicing) is a huge concern. I'm not an economist. Best I can tell our debt is still being purchased at generally the same interest rates it has been for a while, so we seem to be okay for now. By the way these tax cuts on the rich, you know the ones that the system has been kind enough to allocate all the money to, aren't helping the debt situation any. At least Bill Clinton and Obama, despite turning out to be failed demagogues who ultimately kowtowed to the corporate elites, tried to do the right thing and slip in small tax hikes on the rich.

"I'm not saying Trump is a genius."

Obviously not. I don't believe he's as big of a dope as he seems though. Just keep in mind he's a guy who kept books of Hitler's speeches on his nightstand, and he's smart enough to have figured out (or at least listened to Steve Bannon) that owning the media cycle can consistently take you a long way. You just need to understand he's not here to drain any swamps but to fill them with his own people. Letting an investment banker take over the Fed and an Exxon CEO take over the State Dept should tell you this.

"Matter of fact every free trade globalist would have told you that threat of tariffs would be a horrible solution that would lead to a trade war."

You're right. Trump, in the unlikely event that he even makes good on his trade promises, is going to find out that his ideas of manipulating trade have a lot more problems than his glib comments on the campaign trail seemed to understand. Once you jump down the rabbit hole of free trade, you can't just climb back out on a whim. Trade wars have historically escalated into military wars.

First of all, if you pass Glass Steagal, you don’t need Dodd Frank. The fine Democratic Senators from the northeast states passed Dodd Frank so that Glass Steagal would not come back so that their wealthy donors keep getting wealthy. Everyone in finance knows that DF is a small obstacle for the big to fail banks., but hurts the smaller mid sized ones.

You say we need to raise taxes on the wealthy for redistribution, yet when you look at the statistics, we collected less revenue as a percentage of GDP back in the 50%70%-90% tax era than we do now. If you dig deeper you realize that the lower income folks are the ones who used to pay more back in those days than they do now. The reality is you can tax individual income over $1million dollars at 100% and you still wouldn’t close the deficit.

First of all, if you pass Glass Steagal, you don’t need Dodd Frank.

No shit, Sherlock. Welcome to a bit of hyperbole.

You say we need to raise taxes on the wealthy for redistribution, yet when you look at the statistics, we collected less revenue as a percentage of GDP back in the 50%70%-90% tax era than we do now.

Your numbers are off. The highest tax revenue as a percentage of GDP happened during WW2 when the top tax rate was in the 90's.

If you dig deeper you realize that the lower income folks are the ones who used to pay more back in those days than they do now.

Half the country is living in poverty or close to it. The poor currently pay an absurd percentage of their income in taxes. It's something like twice as much as the rich. Might want to keep that in mind before you spew these skewed Fox News talking points in the future.

The reality is you can tax individual income over $1million dollars at 100% and you still wouldn’t close the deficit.

OK. Let's talk about Corporate and capital gains taxes now.

When you say the poor pay a high percentage of "taxes" you mean things like SS, Medicare, State, local, and sales tax and NOT federal income tax, correct?

Yes, he is. It’s him that is just spewing out talking points. He’s counting on WWII when American govt was pumping money into the war economy raising profits in the war suppliers which increased revenues. What he also leaves out is that the deficit also skyrocketed during the WWII years. A better comparable is the periods after WWII with this those same high rates. They are not as good.

The poor did pay more income tax even during the Clinton era. The EIC and the child tax credit fixed that. Nice for pot folk but bad for tax revenue

AlabamAlum wrote:When you say the poor pay a high percentage of "taxes" you mean things like SS, Medicare, State, local, and sales tax and NOT federal income tax, correct?

All taxes combined. In some of the more regressive states the poor are paying up to 7 times as much of their income as the rich.

"Half the country is living in poverty or close to it."

I'm not sure what you're defining as poverty, but I don't half the country is living in what I would call poverty...

I wish you wouldn't be living at all.

Tree wrote:

AlabamAlum wrote:When you say the poor pay a high percentage of "taxes" you mean things like SS, Medicare, State, local, and sales tax and NOT federal income tax, correct?

All taxes combined. In some of the more regressive states the poor are paying up to 7 times as much of their income as the rich.

Again, hyperbole?

Nobody here defends these GOP tax bills - maybe some are holding out for the final versions.

Whereas Forbes Magazine, hardly a rino publication, bashes the proposed legislation regularly and without reservation.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnwasik/ ... 59528c60ad

"“The bill does nothing at all to reduce or eliminate the tax on Social Security benefits that burdens more than half of all retiree households,” Johnson notes.

"Yet the tax cuts for corporations and the wealthiest households in the Tax Cut and Jobs Act will add an estimated $1.5 trillion to the national debt. Some conservative Members of Congress say they are planning a budget that would require mandatory spending cuts to reduce the debt next year."

Worse yet, the House GOP plan caps mortgage interest, property tax write-offs and cuts personal exemptions while raising tax rates for middle-income earners.