The Goat Pen

I don't think its a bad thing, but what's up with this flag thing? Are we blaming flags for this?

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Wal-Mart is removing everything with the Confederate flag on it from its stores.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/ ... -carolina/

Isn't that like Hitler removing everything with the Nazi flag?

aTm wrote:I don't think its a bad thing, but what's up with this flag thing? Are we blaming flags for this?

The flag's not to blame. It's a small thing. But one overdue to change.

Whatever anybody thinks about that flag being a part of their "heritage", they wave it knowing full well that it represents hatred, racism, and slavery in the eyes of many of their fellow citizens. Some wave it knowing this but not caring. Some wave it knowing this with the full intention of causing anger and hurt to others.

Georgia added the confederate symbol to the state flag in 1956. They did so as a middle finger and a threat to the civil rights movement.

Some might claim it's a simple, innocent symbol of "heritage", but the truth is it's a symbol of defiance in the face of the civil rights movement and was co-opted by racists, white supremacists, and segregationists long ago. No one's calling for it to be made illegal, but it shouldn't be flown over government institutions which purport to represent ALL its citizens.

As a white Southern male, I understand the attachment that many of my countrymen have towards the Confederate battle flag. I am sure that, for 95% of Southerners, it is a symbol of the courage and sacrifice of the Civil War soldiers from which many of us descend, and has no white supremacy overtones at all.

But I completely understand what that same flag represents to African Americans - chains, whippings, forced labor, rape, families ripped apart, etc.

I'm sure I can find ways to take pride in the valor in the average Confederate soldier without deeply offending my black brethren in the process. So I support taking down that flag in any government building, and pretty much anywhere else. It's all about loving one's neighbor as one's self.

Johnette's Daddy wrote:

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Wal-Mart is removing everything with the Confederate flag on it from its stores.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/ ... -carolina/

Isn't that like Hitler removing everything with the Nazi flag?

Somehow Walmart is to the confederate symbol as Hitler is to the swatzika? Not sure how you equate Walmart to racism.

sardis wrote:

Johnette's Daddy wrote:

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Wal-Mart is removing everything with the Confederate flag on it from its stores.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/ ... -carolina/

Isn't that like Hitler removing everything with the Nazi flag?

Somehow Walmart is to the confederate symbol as Hitler is to the swatzika? Not sure how you equate Walmart to racism.

Walmart Chair Rob Walton was a member of a secret society that promoted segregation and racism at the U of Arkansas. Former CEO Mike Duke - cousin of *that* David Duke - has supported hate legislation in Arkansas and Jim Walton funded the League of the South, which is listed as a white supremacist group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

KKK Fliers Found in Downtown Fullerton--But Klan Couldn't Spell "California" Right

http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2 ... fornia.php

Over the weekend, some idiot left bags filled with rocks, Tootsie Rolls and fliers for the Ku Klux Klan in the neighborhoods around downtown Fullerton, according to a local who shall remain nameless for now but shared their finds on Facebook. Coming as it did in the aftermath of the Charleston, South Carolina massacre, it has residents on edge--and laughing.
"These were all cowardly thrown from a car with stones and tootsie rolls, intact and in plastic baggies on my block right now," the person wrote. "Really?"

Whoever did this hate crime ain't particularly smart (are racist dipshits ever particularly smart, though), having misspelled "California" on some of the fliers they distributed.

According to the bartender, they filed a report with the Fullerton Police Department, which has been "nothing but professional and really did take this seriously."

It's worth noting at this point that the exact modus operandi--flyer for the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, Tootsie Rolls and rocks in a plastic bag--is same one that saw play in Orange neighborhoods last year and earlier this year in SanTana, so it's probably the same racist loser in all three cases. And it's also worth noting that while modern-day Fullerton is a multicultural oasis, old-time Fullerton was a hotbed of Klucker activity, back when the Invisible Army lynched people instead of just distributed Xeroxed fliers--why, Fullerton still has a bunch of streets and schools named after those hooded pendejos.

So, racist loser: wake up and smell the orange blossoms, and get the hell out of town. Join all your fellow Orange County white supremacists in Idaho or Menifee or somewhere...

Dr. Strangelove wrote:

aTm wrote:I don't think its a bad thing, but what's up with this flag thing? Are we blaming flags for this?

The flag's not to blame. It's a small thing. But one overdue to change.

Whatever anybody thinks about that flag being a part of their "heritage", they wave it knowing full well that it represents hatred, racism, and slavery in the eyes of many of their fellow citizens. Some wave it knowing this but not caring. Some wave it knowing this with the full intention of causing anger and hurt to others.

Georgia added the confederate symbol to the state flag in 1956. They did so as a middle finger and a threat to the civil rights movement.

Some might claim it's a simple, innocent symbol of "heritage", but the truth is it's a symbol of defiance in the face of the civil rights movement and was co-opted by racists, white supremacists, and segregationists long ago. No one's calling for it to be made illegal, but it shouldn't be flown over government institutions which purport to represent ALL its citizens.

DSL,

I'm not pro confederate flag, but slavery existed under the Stars and Stripes a lot longer than it did under the stars and bars. The U.S. has committed or sanctioned every sin and perversion that the Confederates did and for more years. Some gangs have co-opted the U.S. Flag and a few high schools are asking kids not to wear shirts with U.S. flags on it. Bad people co-opt any number of things. What racists, or gangs or axe murderers co-opt should not be the foundation of policy.

So, the whole "symbol of hate, rape, and kicking puppies" rings hollow with me. The argument that makes sense is simply this: it shouldn't be on the Capitol grounds because it's not our countriy's flag and it shouldn't be a state's flag -anymore than the Union Jack (and, depending where you live, Spain's flag and/or France's flag, etc). So, yeah, I'm for them removing it. It should have never been up there after 1865.

That said, removing it now is knee jerk. We should wait 6 months. Removing it now does two things: (1) shows our marionette's strings and (2) riles up the crazies who believe the war on them has started.

Stars and Bars represent a failed insurrection and attempt to overthrow the Constitution. Everyone involved was a traitor by definition.

Had the Union stuck to its guns and hanged Robert E. Lee, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Wade Hampton and Jefferson Davis, many of the racial divisions and disparities would have healed by now. Instead, Andrew Johnson - a Southener - pushed Reconstruction and 10 years after the war the same plantation oligarchs who started the rebellion were running the South again.

.....symbolism over substance, that's the ticket.

Johnette's Daddy wrote:Walmart Chair Rob Walton was a member of a secret society that promoted segregation and racism at the U of Arkansas. Former CEO Mike Duke - cousin of *that* David Duke - has supported hate legislation in Arkansas and Jim Walton funded the League of the South, which is listed as a white supremacist group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

If you want to go into history, the whole catalog of segregationists were Democrats. One of them was Bill Clinton's mentor in Arkansas. The Democrat Party even made a former KKK Grand Wizard their Senate Majority Leader. But I don't see you bailing on the Democrat party based on past unsavory associations.

Isn't that like Hitler removing everything with the Nazi flag?[/quote]

Somehow Walmart is to the confederate symbol as Hitler is to the swatzika? Not sure how you equate Walmart to racism.[/quote]

Walmart Chair Rob Walton was a member of a secret society that promoted segregation and racism at the U of Arkansas. Former CEO Mike Duke - cousin of *that* David Duke - has supported hate legislation in Arkansas and Jim Walton funded the League of the South, which is listed as a white supremacist group by the Southern Poverty Law Center.[/quote]

Forgive me for being skeptical of these claims. Maybe you can help with some links.

JD-

That's irrelevant. Any group that secedes from its original group can be considered traitors - including the U.S. forming its own country separate from England.

And plantation oligarchs were running the south. Of course, manufacturing oligarchs were running the north. Morally, very little difference between the two groups.

Johnette's Daddy wrote:Stars and Bars represent a failed insurrection and attempt to overthrow the Constitution. Everyone involved was a traitor by definition.

I'm sure the English considered George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, et al traitors too. Jeff Davis and the legislators of the Southern states reasoned that, if the 13 colonies can secede from Great Britain, why can't South Carolina and Virginia secede from the Union? That was a reasonable question back then. It has now been answered.

"Had the Union stuck to its guns and hanged Robert E. Lee, Nathan Bedford Forrest, Wade Hampton and Jefferson Davis, many of the racial divisions and disparities would have healed by now. "

If Lincoln had done that, and made Reconstruction a big bloody retribution, then the Civil War would have probably morphed into a guerrilla war, and the South would have become the North's Afghanistan, and it might still be going on. Instead, the "malice towards none" policy herded the angry and bitter South back into the Union with minimum fuss. And Southerners were fighting loyally under the Stars and Stripes 50 years later in WWI, and ever since.

"...it was an attempt to overthrow the Constitution."

You're reading the Constitution way too conservatively , i.e., way too literally. According to the Manual of Liberalism, the Constitution is a "living, breathing document" and therefore infinitely malleable to suit your ideology. You can read into it things that aren't there, like the right to abortion, and ignore things that are there, like the right to keep and bear arms. By finding the right to secede, the founders of the Confederates were Constitutional liberals.

"Whatever anybody thinks about that flag being a part of their "heritage", they wave it knowing full well that it represents hatred, racism, and slavery in the eyes of many of their fellow citizens. Some wave it knowing this but not caring. Some wave it knowing this with the full intention of causing anger and hurt to others."

Private citizens are obviously allowed to do this. State governments, I'm not so sure...

"Stars and Bars represent a failed insurrection and attempt to overthrow the Constitution. Everyone involved was a traitor by definition."

You could say the same thing about the American flag and America. Or is your argument that only losers are traitors?

hedge wrote:"Stars and Bars represent a failed insurrection and attempt to overthrow the Constitution. Everyone involved was a traitor by definition."

You could say the same thing about the American flag and America. Or is your argument that only losers are traitors?

Precisely. And the Founding Fathers knew that if they lost, they would be hanged.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-e-pr ... 92&ref=yfp

Yes, You're a Racist -- And a Traitor

While I was out jogging this morning, I passed a neighbor's house that I have passed every day for almost three years. Usually I stroll right on by without giving it a second thought. Today, though... today was different. I stopped in my tracks and blankly stared until a car honked at me to move out of the way.

This house flies a Confederate flag.

I don't live in South Carolina or even Maryland. I live in a small town in Central Pennsylvania, 50 miles north of Gettysburg -- the site of the most famous victory of the Civil War. Yet even here, a few hundred feet from my front door flies the unambiguous symbol of hatred, racism and treason.

Normally, this would elicit some fleeting contempt and I would go about my day. But with the slayings in Charleston very much on my mind, I found myself getting angry... very angry.

Angry at this person, this "neighbor" of mine. Angry at the culture that permits such blatant hatred. Angry at the media who provide cover for the ignorant. Angry at the teachers who perpetuate historical falsehoods. Angry at myself for not being angry before.

You see, I study traditional culture. More specifically, I study the ways in which today's culture manufactures and reinforces traditions through mass media. Folklorists have a unique disciplinary perspective for this sort of analysis because there was this period of time when the field was mired in "romantic nationalism." The "true character" of a people was said to be rooted in the culture of the volk and was glorified and incorporated into more modern political movements. Like Nazism. So folklorists have a keen interest in serving as the sort-of keepers of cultural authenticity, if you will. If anyone should be highlighting the ways in which "traditions" are being manufactured, distorted and consumed, it is us... me.

In America today, the most prominent, prevalent and pernicious of these revisionist movements is the Lost Cause narrative: the idea that the Civil War was a romantic struggle for freedom against an oppressive government trying to enforce cultural change. There are scores of books on this topic, and you should check those out at your local library. But probably the most famous popular culture Lost Cause text is Gone With The Wind (both book and movie).

I hate Gone With the Wind. I hate everything about it. I hate its portrayal of the Civil War. I hate its portrayal of Southern aristocrats. I hate its popularity. I hate that it's become an iconic movie. I hate that it was ever made in the first place.

Gone With the Wind is Birth of a Nation with less horses. The movie, and its position among the American cinematic pantheon, has done more to further the ahistoric Lost Cause bullshit than any other single production. Because that's the fundamental problem with the Lost Cause narrative: it's not true.

Let's go one-by-one through some typical Lost Cause-tinged revisionist talking points:

The Civil War was about economics, not slavery!

Yes, the Civil War was about the economics of slavery.
The Civil War was about states' rights, not slavery!

Yes, the Civil War was about the states' right to maintain slavery.
That's not the Confederate flag!

True, it's the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, which actually makes your usage even worse. It's the banner under which men fought and died to enact secession.
Heritage not hate!

Funny story: The heritage is hate. This is my favorite talking point because it sets up a false dichotomy and then tries to pretend "heritage" is a signifier for some romantic, noble culture just waiting to be recaptured. When Lindsay Graham says things like, "The flag represents to some people a civil war, and that was the symbol of one side. To others it's a racist symbol, and it's been used by people, it's been used in a racist way," he makes a mockery of the history. Yes, Senator, it does represent one side of the Civil War: the side that advocated slavery and secession. It's the flag of treason.
The savagery of slavery is offensive enough to justify any level of outrage. The disgusting post-war history of the Ku Klux Klan is offensive enough to justify any level of outrage. But what might be the most absurd part of this neo-Confederate "heritage" romanticism is that its advocates are simply glorifying treason.

Remember that time South Carolina attacked Fort Sumter? That's the literal definition of treason. And I quote Article III, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." Not exactly abstract legalese that requires a ton of parsing.

The states that seceded to become the Confederacy were actively engaged in open war against the United States government. A war they started because of the election of a man they deemed "hostile to slavery." A war they fought to maintain the "heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race." A war they lost.

But it was a war based on a fundamental social conflict that is still not resolved and simmers under the zeitgeist, rearing its ugly head every so often to remind us it hasn't gone anywhere. It was not resolved in 1865, not in 1965, and sadly, not in 2015.

The "heritage" of the Confederacy, the enduring belief in Lost Cause romanticism, the invention and adoption of revisionist "traditions" and culture, has become society's Old Faithful: a cultural geyser that periodically lets off steam; a spectacle at which we ogle and wax poetic about the fragility of our condition. But one day it'll explode and it'll be a catastrophe from which we might not recover.

The tragedy of America is that this is all self-inflicted. This trajectory to self-destruction doesn't have to be the outcome. As Jon Stewart so eloquently pointed out, "Al Qaeda... ISIS... they're not shit on the damage we can apparently do to ourselves on a regular basis."

The troglodyte that killed those people in South Carolina wanted to fire the opening shots in a new race war. He is a Confederate in every sense of the word. He is a white supremacist. He is a terrorist. He is a traitor.

The worst part is that he is not some aberration. Oh, we want to comfort and assure ourselves that he is, that he has some mental issue, or that he's evil, or some other easy excuse that absolves us all of responsibility.

His actions were heinous, but he is the product of a media environment and culture that protects the ignorant and glorifies division. This is the "heritage" celebrated by those who fly the Confederate flag. By those like my neighbor.

And what about my neighbor? In a perfect world, I would ring his doorbell and have a reasonable discussion with him about how what he's doing is offensive and ahistoric and I'd love to correct his understanding of the entire mess. But the sad fact is, he's not alone, either.

In my time here I've seen scores of Confederate bumper stickers, license plates, and even other flags. Neo-Confederate revisionism is everywhere. It's not confined to "dumb rednecks" or red-state voters or Nascar fans or any other easy stereotype we use to deceive ourselves and dismiss painful realities. It's not even confined to older generations. The killer in South Carolina is 21. He's a Millennial. He's one of us.

And every day that we don't react to that information, every day we don't internalize this conflict, every day we tell ourselves nothing is wrong, every day we claim we can't be racist because we have black friends, every day we share some viral cat video instead of watch the news, every day we don't knock on our neighbor's door... is another day nothing will change.

Einstein explains why we have Obammer.


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