The Goat Pen

"The Founders allowed citizens to have military grade weapons of the time. The argument that 'they didn't know what rifles would look like now so they didn't mean the 2nd A ' is like saying 'they didn't know about the Internet or television so they didn't mean the 1st A.'"

Speech isn't lethal, internet or otherwise. False equivalence. Doubt the Founders (or even you, for that matter) think that citizens should have access to nuclear weapons. Today's assault rifles are more or less nuclear weapons compared to muskets. I know you're a gun lover, like you said, nothing I can say will change your mind, nor vice versa, although I am not adamant in either direction, as you admittedly are. I have no problem whatsoever with you owning a gun or any kind. But if the 2nd amendment was repealed and you were legally required to turn in your arsenal, however meager, it wouldn't bother me in the least, irregardless of whether you complied....

"A gun is a tool. It is neither good or bad. But this argument has been done too much. It won't change anyone's mind one way or the other."

This however is an exact equivalence with heroin, but you never hear gun advocates make it with regard to heroin. The only difference is, heroin users only harm themselves, not counting the emotional "harm" they might cause to their friends and loved ones, but that's not the same as a hole in the head...

All this is reflected by the words we use when we talk about these things. When it's guns, it's a "right". When it's heroin, it's an "epidemic". I can easily imagine a world in which these two situations were reversed, a gun epidemic and a right to use heroin. Hell, I can imagine that in the world we currently live in. Think about it. Words aren't reality...

It appears guns are somewhat like wealth in this country. A very small percentage of people own a very large percentage of the respective commodity, and they both have an outsize influence over politicians and therefor policies in this country. Again, I'm pretty ambivalent in either case, but there's not denying the mathematics of both realities...

One difference being that the vast majority of the highly wealthy are also highly educated, whereas the majority of gun owners do not even have a college degree. Not sure if that's really meaningful, but it is statistically true. Basically the less educated you are, the more likely you are to own a gun, and the more educated you are, the less likely you are to own one. I only say this to irk the obviously over-educated eCat and AA, but you are in the minority when it comes to gun ownership...

Cletus wrote:A ban on guns wouldn't instantly remove all guns but if you made them illegal and coupled that with a massive buyback program (maybe take some of $700B that is going to be wasted on the military), you'd see a very large reduction over a pretty short period of time. And, I guarantee you that the rate of gun violence would go down at the same rate.

As eCat said, the number of guns sold in the US skyrocketed under Obama:



At the same time, the violent crime rate plummeted under Obama:


In short, it has been a statistical fact that more guns has led to less violent crime over the past 16 years. So, Cletus, on what rational basis do you issue your "guarantee"?

I don't think you understand the difference between correlation and causation.

I don't think you can admit that gun control doesn't makes violent crime go down.

You live in one of the most violent cities in the US. You also live in one of the most pro gun control cities in the US. If gun control reduced violent crime, then you should be able to take your family for an evening stroll around Garfield Park or Auburn-Gresham. But you and I both know would be suicidal.

"There are 30,000 gun related deaths per year by firearms, and this number is not disputed. The U.S. population is 324,059,091 as of June 22, 2016. Do the math: 0.000000925% of the population dies from gun related actions each year. Statistically speaking, this is insignificant! What is never told, however, is a breakdown of those 30,000 deaths, to put them in perspective as compared to other causes of death:
• 65% of those deaths are by suicide, which would never be prevented by gun laws.
• 15% are by law enforcement in the line of duty and justified.
• 17% are through criminal activity, gang and drug related or mentally ill persons – better known as gun violence.
• 3% are accidental discharge deaths.
So technically, "gun violence" is not 30,000 annually, but drops to 5,100. Still too many? Now lets look at how those deaths spanned across the nation.
• 480 homicides (9.4%) were in Chicago
• 344 homicides (6.7%) were in Baltimore
• 333 homicides (6.5%) were in Detroit
• 119 homicides (2.3%) were in Washington D.C. (a 54% increase over prior years)
So basically, 25% of all gun crime happens in just 4 cities. All 4 of those cities have strict gun laws, so it is not the lack of law that is the root cause.
This basically leaves 3,825 for the entire rest of the nation, or about 75 deaths per state. That is an average because some States have much higher rates than others. For example, California had 1,169 and Alabama had 1.
Now, who has the strictest gun laws by far? California, of course, but understand, it is not guns causing this. It is a crime rate spawned by the number of criminal persons residing in those cities and states. So if all cities and states are not created equal, then there must be something other than the tool causing the gun deaths.
Are 5,100 deaths per year horrific? How about in comparison to other deaths? All death is sad and especially so when it is in the commission of a crime but that is the nature of crime. Robbery, death, rape, assault are all done by criminals. It is ludicrous to think that criminals will obey laws. That is why they are called criminals.
But what about other deaths each year?
• 40,000+ die from a drug overdose–THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR THAT!
• 36,000 people die per year from the flu, far exceeding the criminal gun deaths.
• 34,000 people die per year in traffic fatalities(exceeding gun deaths even if you include suicide).
Now it gets good:
• 200,000+ people die each year (and growing) from preventable medical errors. You are safer walking in the worst areas of Chicago than you are when you are in a hospital!
• 710,000 people die per year from heart disease. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers!"

No no no... if we just banned guns, then all the criminals would meekly turn in all their guns, and everyone would love each other again...

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius
Aquarius
Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation
Aquarius
Aquarius
When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius
Aquarius
Aquarius
Aquarius
Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, the sunshine in
Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, the sunshine in
Let the sunshine, let the sunshine in, the sunshine in

10ac wrote:"
•. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers!"

go screw yourself

eCat wrote:

10ac wrote:"
•. It’s time to stop the double cheeseburgers!"

go screw yourself

You laugh, but the environmentalist wacko's are trying to do just that. They have decided that cow flatulence is a major source of greenhouse gases, and therefore offends Gaiea. They want to destroy the beef industry like they did the coal industry.

If you like gun control, you'll love cow fart control.

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 27843.html

It's not "Gaiea" and never was the other 17 times you trotted it out.

Then what IS the name of the earth god/goddess that environmentalist wackos worship?

[youtube]tM-2xNMQszw[/youtube]

I know all about Gaia. I was just asking: If the name of the god/goddess that environmentalist wacko's worship is not Gaia - and you said it wasn't - then what IS the name of the god/goddess that environmentalist wacko's worship?

Hillary toys with the truth about her record:

[youtube]-dY77j6uBHI[/youtube]

Why do you need 62 guns?

Jungle Rat wrote:Why do you need 62 guns?

to get to 63