The Goat Pen

Speaking of orange.. Tillerson was brilliant when he called The Donald a 'fucking moron.'

Tillerson 2020!!!

eCat wrote:

Jungle Rat wrote:My poop was green this morning. And I don't eat veggies

not that your serious but that is often a sign of food moving too fast thru your digestive system.

I know this because I just spent time reading why my dog's poop was orange.

Mine was orange 3 days ago! What did it say?

the slippery slope argument is more about a meaningless emotional response - like these bump stocks, and then once the wedge is in the door, it swings wide open putting the focus on gun control regulation that doesn't decrease homicide rates in this country instead of forcing people to address the real issues.

I understand the dangers of slippery slopes. Still, you can't just say "slippery slope" and expect that to preclude sane gun control laws. I am decidedly pro-gun. I think guns in the hands of responsible, law abiding citizens prevent a whole lot of crimes from ever starting in the first place, but they need to be regulated properly.

There are hundreds of sane gun control laws. Every time a nutcase goes on a mass shooting, he always violates at least a dozen of them. 99.99999% of the time, creating a new law would make no difference.

But this case represents the remaining .000001%. Bump stocks are just another way to turn a semiautomatic rifle into an automatic rifle, i.e., spit out bullets MUCH more rapidly than the human finger on a trigger can. I say ban them, and any other similar technical modification that does the same thing.

You can actually pull the trigger on a semi (without a bump stock) a lot faster than most realize. What really slows you down is changing magazines. 100 shots a minute is fairly easy with a hairtrigger on a semi like an AR provided the clips are of sufficient size - all without a bumpstock.

But don't believe me. Take out your phone and start the stopwatch. See how many times you can tap the table (to simulate a short arc hair trigger) in one minute. Most can approach 200 taps or better.

So, will the next step be to eliminate short arc hairtriggers? High capacity magazines? When that's done, surely semi autos will be next - because the process to change a semi to a full - illegal or not- on many rifles, is cheap and easy.

So, yeah, ban bump stocks. Whatever. Just make sure you know what door you're opening.

Also, what's funny is, bump stocks have been around for a long time. The owner of my range says he couldn't give them away. The average person had no idea they even existed or what they were. The news coverage has changed all that, now every moron with an AR is buying them before the inevitable ban hits.

The only sane gun law is complete prohibition.

Try that, and see what happens.

Anything else in the Bill of Rights you'd also like to abolish? Freedom of assembly? Freedom of the press? Protection from unreasonable search and seizure? Right to a fair and speedy trial?

(I almost included in that list freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but as a liberal, I'm pretty sure you want to get rid of those too.)

Jungle Rat wrote:

eCat wrote:

Jungle Rat wrote:My poop was green this morning. And I don't eat veggies

not that your serious but that is often a sign of food moving too fast thru your digestive system.

I know this because I just spent time reading why my dog's poop was orange.

Mine was orange 3 days ago! What did it say?

green, yellow and orange are all digestive issues related to whatever you ate not being completely digested.

Worst case scenario it could mean the organs responsible for developing bile are not responding, but its probably food choice driven

"Also, what's funny is, bump stocks have been around for a long time. The owner of my range says he couldn't give them away. The average person had no idea they even existed or what they were."

I bet the Founders certainly never expected the types of guns we have today to ever exist either. The types of arms they were referring to in the 2nd amendment were, what, one round per minute? The argument that the right to keep arms as a stopgap against a tyrannical government who had the exact same type of arms doesn't hold water today, either, b/c the military has weapons that make defending ourselves against them with rifles and handguns laughable.

I am ambivalent towards guns. Never owned one, never will, but I've always liked the idea of the 2nd amendment as an incentive against government overreach. But I really don't think that's ever going to happen now in America, unlike the real fear of the Founders that it could've happened in the 18th century. And like I said, if the unthinkable occurred and you got a government and military in unison against the people, there would be nothing to stop them. But again, that's just a pure paranoid fantasy that's not going to happen.

The reality is, there are so many handguns out there now you'd never get them back and even if you tried, somebody would figure out a way to make more on the black market. Hunting rifles are fine, IMO, but the types of assault rifles that have nothing to do with hunting, as well as most handguns, if they were somehow outlawed it wouldn't bother me at all. But I understand that that happening is as big a fantasy as the idea of the US government and military turning into the Stalinist Soviet Union and tyrannizing the general population...

"Try that, and see what happens"

I can certainly envision a day when the 2nd Amendment is legally repealed by the will of the people, but it won't be in any of our lifetimes, and maybe never, but it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility. I wonder what percentage of the population even owns a gun? And of those, how many of them own just hunting rifles but not handguns or assault rifles?

A ban on guns wouldn't instantly remove all guns but if you made them illegal and coupled that with a massive buyback program (maybe take some of $700B that is going to be wasted on the military), you'd see a very large reduction over a pretty short period of time. And, I guarantee you that the rate of gun violence would go down at the same rate. Over time, th insane gun culture would change as well. It's worth a shot because what we've got now is horribly broken and not worth preserving.

Cletus wrote:A ban on guns wouldn't instantly remove all guns but if you made them illegal and coupled that with a massive buyback program (maybe take some of $700B that is going to be wasted on the military), you'd see a very large reduction over a pretty short period of time. And, I guarantee you that the rate of gun violence would go down at the same rate. Over time, th insane gun culture would change as well. It's worth a shot because what we've got now is horribly broken and not worth preserving.

that would go well with eliminating hate speech.

hedge wrote:"Also, what's funny is, bump stocks have been around for a long time. The owner of my range says he couldn't give them away. The average person had no idea they even existed or what they were."

I bet the Founders certainly never expected the types of guns we have today to ever exist either. The types of arms they were referring to in the 2nd amendment were, what, one round per minute? The argument that the right to keep arms as a stopgap against a tyrannical government who had the exact same type of arms doesn't hold water today, either, b/c the military has weapons that make defending ourselves against them with rifles and handguns laughable.

I am ambivalent towards guns. Never owned one, never will, but I've always liked the idea of the 2nd amendment as an incentive against government overreach. But I really don't think that's ever going to happen now in America, unlike the real fear of the Founders that it could've happened in the 18th century. And like I said, if the unthinkable occurred and you got a government and military in unison against the people, there would be nothing to stop them. But again, that's just a pure paranoid fantasy that's not going to happen.

The reality is, there are so many handguns out there now you'd never get them back and even if you tried, somebody would figure out a way to make more on the black market. Hunting rifles are fine, IMO, but the types of assault rifles that have nothing to do with hunting, as well as most handguns, if they were somehow outlawed it wouldn't bother me at all. But I understand that that happening is as big a fantasy as the idea of the US government and military turning into the Stalinist Soviet Union and tyrannizing the general population...

you have to think beyond the military . I don't understand why people don't see this. All you have to do is look as far as the BLM movement where they perceive (its not true but for purposes of this discussion) that the police are isolating them and shooting them. If there really is a situation where local police are targeting and killing people for no other reason than their skin color, then they have a right to defend themsleves

Could a person take on a swat team? no, probably not, but if police knew that the citizenry were armed and they were on equal footing with them, they'd think twice about a random stop over a broken tail light.

Hedge,

The Founders allowed citizens to have military grade weapons of the time. The argument that 'they didn't know what rifles would look like now so they didn't mean the 2nd A ' is like saying 'they didn't know about the Internet or television so they didn't mean the 1st A.'

A gun is a tool. It is neither good or bad. But this argument has been done too much. It won't change anyone's mind one way or the other. I regret bringing it up.

these are the leaders that some people on here want running the world

Michigan State President issues statement on racial incident.......

I was distressed this morning to learn of a racial incident in one of our residence halls. A student reported a noose was hung outside of her room. I want to recognize the courage it took for the student to report this incident.

MSU Police and our Office of Institutional Equity were immediately notified, and both promptly began investigations. I want to be clear: This type of behavior is not tolerated on our campus. No Spartan should ever feel targeted based on their race, or other ways in which they identify. A noose is a symbol of intimidation and threat that has a horrendous history in America.

While at this time we do not know all of the details, the Spartan community can be assured we are vigorously investigating this situation.


sounds like a "this is the kind of person we need in charge of this country" feel good moment for the enlightened crowd -decisive, confident, ready to get out in front of the crowd to prove they are in touch with the disenfranchised



except......


After investigating, MSU Police have determined the object was a packaged leather shoelace and not a noose. The matching packaged shoelace was found outside of the residence hall. Officers located and spoke to the student who lost both of the shoelaces. The student who lost the shoelaces lives on the same floor as the student who made the original report.

Also, the original shoelace found inside the residence hall was not directed at any individual. It originally was seen on hallway floor and later on a stairwell door handle, where officers believe someone put it after picking it up.

-----

MY CHUCK TAYLORS ARE GUILTY OF A HATE CRIME!!!!!!

Cletus wrote:A ban on guns wouldn't instantly remove all guns but if you made them illegal and coupled that with a massive buyback program (maybe take some of $700B that is going to be wasted on the military), you'd see a very large reduction over a pretty short period of time. And, I guarantee you that the rate of gun violence would go down at the same rate. Over time, th insane gun culture would change as well. It's worth a shot because what we've got now is horribly broken and not worth preserving.

If you disarm the American populace you're going to have people getting killed and robbed that otherwise would not have been. How much serious gun crime is being perpetrated by people who obtained their firearms legally anyway? My understanding is not enough to even think about disarming everyone.

The greatest gun salesman in America has been Barak Obama.

Over 100 million guns were sold to the general public during his time in office.

There are more guns than people in the United States. NPR reports there are at least 300 million guns in America - that number is low if 100 million were sold between 2008 and 2016

Once you sell a gun to a private individual, its off the books. Few criminals have bought guns legally in the last 20 years

The vast majority of Americas do not want guns illegal. read that again.

That doesn't change until the culture of this country changes where a person can walk down the streets of Chicago in the evening and feel safe.

You want to invoke meaningful gun control in this country, then demand that our leaders take whatever steps are necessary to make Chicago, New York, LA, St. Louis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Detroit, ..... safe to the point that people can walk down the street without concern at 1am.

Now ask yourself why that can't happen. Its not some random 64 year old white dude who lost his mind. Its not an assault rifle sold at Cabelas.

Over 100 million guns were sold to the general public during his time in office.

I would assume that's because of the fear-mongering on the right where they said Obama was going to take their guns and/or ammo.

Granted he did try (and in some cases succeed) to pass some bullshit regs.

In the end gun control is a second tier issue that functionally divides and distracts us from more important economic matters that we need to be uniting on and fixing.

I'm guessing Cletus lives safely in the blue.