The Goat Pen

eCat wrote:

Cletus wrote:I suppose anything is possible but that seems very unlikely. After the conversation I had with my wife last night and again tonight, I think it's quite possible that we seriously pursue options outside the US. Raising kids here is a lot less appealing than it ever has been.

just move to California, it will be like living in a foreign country...and you'll get a taste first hand of living day to day with the enlightened people.

that will move my timeline up by about 6 years.

I do spend a tremendous amount of time in California and wonder why we don't just live in LA or OC. But, that's nothing like living abroad. I genuinely want to get out of this toxic culture and try something different. These "middle American" values are no good and I'm not as confident as Hedge that this is a temporary blip. I'm going to Australia for the first time in a couple of months. Maybe I'll like it down there and find a way to stay.

"today's version isn't for free speech, equality or personal/property rights - which I've always believed was the bedrock and consequently the common ground of both liberals and libertarians."

Yes it is. Your mistake is to assume that some fringe yahoos represent liberalism. They don't. I represent liberalism...

"I'm not as confident as Hedge that this is a temporary blip."

It's not a temporary blip, there are always going to be reactionaries who want things to go back to some "better time" that never existed, but one in which their power was close to absolute. But history (and particularly the history of our own lifetimes) has shown that there's no going back. The struggle never ends, but in the end, people want more freedom, not less, and they'll get it. Government can't stop it. History is littered with the bones of tyrants and despots who tried (and sadly succeeded for some length of time) but ultimately failed. Blips like the one we're experiencing now are actually good for our cause, it focuses the mind and strengthens the will...

No, you fucking idiot, America is the greatest example of a leftist state

If America is such a leftist state, then please explain this:



If leftism is so triumphant, why are leftists so apoplectic right now? Why are people like Cletus ready to emigrate?

Unlike what Trump said about there being some good folks amongst those white supremacists in Charlottesville, there actually are plenty of good folks in all that red area of your map (not including you, obviously). They are more cautious than the folks who have mostly moved to urban areas and slower to accept change, but in the end they do and they will. Young folks in particular (although many of them are the ones who get out as fast as they can and move to the big city, and who can blame them?). But there are plenty of folks of good will in all those red areas and they will prevail over your stinking idiot ass. Which is why you are so apoplectic...

That map is one helluva blip for Leftism to overcome. Good luck with that.

The struggle never ends, but in the end, people want more freedom, not less, and they'll get it.

The people of Venezuela bought into leftism when they voted in Chavez in '98. (That was back when they could still vote, but I digress...) Chavez made all the usual nice sounding promises that Democrats make here. How did that promised leftist utopia work out for the Venezuelans? Are they getting "more freedom, not less?" Socialism did to Venezuela what it has done to every country where it has been tried: no more freedom of speech, vote, press, self defense, legal due process, worship, assemble, etc. Just the freedom to obey an all-powerful and totally unaccountable government, and the freedom to dumpster dive to avoid starvation.

And now you leftists want to bring that same Venezuelan worker's socialist paradise here? Most normal people in all those red states don't want it.

"That map is one helluva blip for Leftism to overcome. Good luck with that."

There are more people in NYC than in 5 western states combined. It's already been overcome. Culture isn't measured by land area. Agriculture, sure, but not culture. And your kind has always lost and will continue to lose the culture war, for obvious reasons. Well, not obvious to you, but that's exactly why you always lose...

"8 years ago, the Democrats controlled the White House, the Senate, and the House. Now, after 8 years of a leftist Democrat president, Republicans control the White House, the Senate, and the House, and now most of the state governments. But leftism winning! Socialism is our destiny! Nothing can stop the forward march of Marxism Lite! Workers of the world unite! You have nothing to lose but a robust economy for the first time in 8 years! You doomed conservatives, resistance is futile! The science is settled!"

Never said anything about socialism, although clearly the main role of government everywhere is socialist. I don't see you complaining about public education, etc. You like socialism, you just want to be able to say who gets what...

hedge wrote:"That map is one helluva blip for Leftism to overcome. Good luck with that."

There are more people in NYC than in 5 western states combined. It's already been overcome. Culture isn't measured by land area. Agriculture, sure, but not culture. And your kind has always lost and will continue to lose the culture war, for obvious reasons. Well, not obvious to you, but that's exactly why you always lose...

The founding fathers kind of understood that a group centrally located can't dictate the desires of the entire nation. Its exactly why Trump won the presidency. Take California out of the equation and Trump wins convincingly. There was no balance to the voting for Hillary. No one aside from Cletus and Lena Dunham believes that California needs to dictate how the country should be to the rest of the nation.

Liberalism may work in a densely populated area that is heavily dependent on government services - trash pickup, public transportation, - there is an inherit understanding that government dependency represents a quality of life but those folks out in the 80% of the United States that doesn't represent the 62 counties of urban sprawl are a bit more independent of government and don't see it as a necessity for supporting their values.

They aren't signing up for a belief in the plethora of government supplied free college education, subsidized health care and the cause of wealth re-distribution, nor are they interested in a government that regulates morality based on the values of California or New York

And once again, although I'm sure this concept is beyond your simpleton's mind, I'm not talking about government, but I can see why that's the only thing an idiot like you can understand. Which, ironically, is exactly what the main proponents of that realm of life want out of you. And they're never disappointed...

I highly doubt that "middle Australia" or "middle England" or "middle Anywhere" is some more enlightened utopia that puts "middle America" to shame. All you'd be doing is finding a rich hidey hole enclave somewhere else to shelter yourself from the undesirables of that country like you're thinking about doing here with a move to OC or wherever. I guess you'd be avoiding all that racial drama, since basically there arent any black people in Australia, so "middle Australia" probably isnt all up in arms about that and conveniently they dont share a land border with some other poor state to deal with widespread undocumented immigration. However, I highly doubt that they are racially enlightened in any sense, because as recently as the 1970's the country followed something called the "White Australia policy." In fact, I'm sure the typical Australian is so ignorant of black people that they probably think its hilarious to throw a banana when they do see one. As far as other more progressive ideals, maybe. I'm sure most countries are just overflowing with cocksuckers who you never get to see from your stay at the Four Seasons, just like here in the USA.

"but those folks out in the 80% of the United States that doesn't represent the 62 counties of urban sprawl are a bit more independent of government and don't see it as a necessity for supporting their values."

I would bet that the areas that voted for Trump get far more government aid than the places that didn't...

hedge wrote:And once again, although I'm sure this concept is beyond your simpleton's mind, I'm not talking about government, but I can see why that's the only thing an idiot like you can understand. Which, ironically, is exactly what the main proponents of that realm of life want out of you. And they're never disappointed...

no I understand exactly what you are talking about

but a liberal with a protest sign doesn't make a christian bakery owner make a cake for a gay wedding. Government does.

I was talking to Prof in that post...

2.5% of Australians are Aborigines. If enough American liberals like Cletus move there, they can convince the Aborigines how horribly racist Australia is and convince them to be angry, resentful, and demand reparations. Maybe they can even do that under an Aboriginal Prime Minister of Australia.

middle America values would be the last thing I'd worry about

CHICAGOLAND: 7 Dead, 35 Wounded In Labor Day Weekend Shootings...

eCat wrote:middle America values would be the last thing I'd worry about

CHICAGOLAND: 7 Dead, 35 Wounded In Labor Day Weekend Shootings...

Unless it was a white cop shooting anyone but a white criminal, then there is no news there. Sorry to inform you.

Cletus you are welcome here in California. And Australia is a wonderful country to visit. Have a great trip.

Many of those shooting deaths and injuries that are constantly being cited in here are due to the fact that drugs are illegal. If drug laws were liberalized, as I propose, that sort of turf violence would be eradicated overnight. That's not what some people want, though, and at best they don't mind that black thugs are killing each other...