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Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:46 am
by eCat
hedge wrote:"Legalizing heroin does not change that process in any way. You are coming at it from a stand point of it being a casual recreational drug. Its not."
This is the crux of the problem. Look at the language you use. You clearly think that cigarettes and alcohol are "casual" and "recreational" and I doubt you would even use the term "drugs" when talking about them. But somehow the fact that millions of people die every year as a direct consequence of using tobacco and alcohol and that hundreds of billions of dollars are spent caring for them doesn't stop you from thinking of these vices as "casual" and "recreational". Again, from my libertarian point of view, it doesn't matter if they're "casual and recreational" or, as is really the case, progressively addictive and deadly. People should be able to kill themselves in whatever way they see fit. It's none of the government's or anybody else's business. As long as the real information about all these things is available to everyone (and it is), it's their choice.
its not about the individual though. Society, either thru scientific or empirical data has determined that the cost of cigarettes and alcohol (and its not like there hasn't been an ebb and flow to this) is acceptable while heroin is not. Eastern societies recognized the danger of this drug in the 1700's. In the late 1800's American attempted to normalize it by imposing taxes on its import. Bayer company distributes is as an alternative to morphine. Less than 10 years later they realize the damage its doing and they start shutting it down. In less than 20 years they ban the importation and a few years later they outlaw it completely.
Every major country that has seen heroin introduced into society has outlawed it.
You can't really say - if the person wants to do it, let them, if the result is that person is almost guaranteed to become a burden on society, and in many cases become a threat to society. I think that's the subtle difference between narcotics versus tobacco/alcohol.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:30 pm
by Saint
I will say this about heroin users. Yes, they do break into houses and do all kinds of things to get that next fix but I could guarantee you that if heroin were legal and cheap, junkies wouldn't bother breaking into homes or committing crimes of that nature. on the other hand, alcohol is legal and cheap and you still see people committing violent crimes (including drunk driving) when using it.
The main damage heroin does, excluding overdoses and the associated crime, is make the user a lazy ne'er do well. That will never be tolerated in America.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:58 pm
by eCat
Saint wrote:I will say this about heroin users. Yes, they do break into houses and do all kinds of things to get that next fix but I could guarantee you that if heroin were legal and cheap, junkies wouldn't bother breaking into homes or committing crimes of that nature. on the other hand, alcohol is legal and cheap and you still see people committing violent crimes (including drunk driving) when using it.
The main damage heroin does, excluding overdoses and the associated crime, is make the user a lazy ne'er do well. That will never be tolerated in America.
heroin is cheap.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:07 pm
by Saint
No, it's not. It might be cheap to score a fix if you're just starting out but within short order, your bill will run into the hundreds for a week.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:07 pm
by Saint
You can still get drunk for $10.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:23 pm
by hedge
"Society, either thru scientific or empirical data has determined that the cost of cigarettes and alcohol is acceptable while heroin is not."
[youtube]1KI3aHxun9M[/youtube]
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:26 pm
by hedge
"Every major country that has seen heroin introduced into society has outlawed it."
It was legal in the US for well over 100 years until the prohibitionists decided to shut down everything, including alcohol. That didn't turn out very well...
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:27 pm
by eCat
Saint wrote:No, it's not. It might be cheap to score a fix if you're just starting out but within short order, your bill will run into the hundreds for a week.
well yea, but that's not going to change - they legalize it you ain't getting no bulk discount
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:34 pm
by hedge
"You can't really say - if the person wants to do it, let them, if the result is that person is almost guaranteed to become a burden on society, and in many cases become a threat to society."
That is manifestly false, but of course you never see stories about the majority of heroin users who don't cause problems to anyone but themselves. Seriously, if everybody who was using heroin was as bad as what you see on made for TV dramas like Intervention or the local obituaries, I would agree with you. But the undeniable fact that millions of people are using it and there are what?, 10K deaths per year, is proof that everyone who uses heroin is not "guaranteed" to die from it. In fact by those numbers, the odds are very slim that you will. And putting people in jail for it creates far more of a burden on society than treatment, which I'm all for...
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:38 pm
by hedge
I will admit, as Stu said, that heroin does contribute greatly to a general sense of lassitude in its users, and America hates malingerers...
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:45 pm
by Saint
eCat wrote:Saint wrote:No, it's not. It might be cheap to score a fix if you're just starting out but within short order, your bill will run into the hundreds for a week.
well yea, but that's not going to change - they legalize it you ain't getting no bulk discount
I know but there is a difference between the effects of heroin and alcohol.
On a somewhat related note, regardless of all the other shit Trump has going on, if he (through Sessions) tries to go after pot smokers, I think that will end up being the noose that hangs him. That's the most perplexing thing I've read about his policies. You'd think he'd recognize that there's a lot of money to be made by legalizing pot, not by going backwards and prosecuting users, as has been reported.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:50 pm
by eCat
Sessions is old school Reagan in that regard.
I'd prefer they just focus on 3 or 4 things and stop trying to boil the ocean
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:51 pm
by hedge
I am sure Jeff Sessions feels the same way about marijuana as eCat feels about heroin, i.e., really and truly believes that pretty much anyone who smokes weed is guaranteed to become a burden and menace to society. Well yeah, a menace to whatever backwoods baptist society in south Alabama that he's from...
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:59 pm
by eCat
hedge wrote:I am sure Jeff Sessions feels the same way about marijuana as eCat feels about heroin, i.e., really and truly believes that pretty much anyone who smokes weed is guaranteed to become a burden and menace to society. Well yeah, a menace to whatever backwoods baptist society in south Alabama that he's from...
the difference is I'm right about heroin
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:09 pm
by hedge
I don't mind you thinking you're right about heroin nearly as much as I mind Jeff Sessions thinking he's right about weed. The worst you can do is make me run laps...
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:12 pm
by hedge
Zach Galifianakis pulled out a joint on Bill Maher's show one time and puffed up (not sure if it was really weed, but the reaction of the other panelists makes me think it was). Maher had him back on a later show to ramp it up a bit (funny reference to Trump as well, way before he was even running for president). I like when he says "I've never done this before"...
[youtube]rbxMD-4-hn0[/youtube]
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:24 pm
by eCat
This is the world we live in now
"Sadiq Khan has said he believes the threat of terror attacks are “part and parcel of living in a big city” and encouraged Londoners to be vigilant to combat dangers."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 22846.html
Four in ten British Muslims want some aspect of Sharia Law enforced in UK
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/738852 ... Islam-poll
The report said found that 26 per cent of Muslims did not believe in extremism and 48 per cent would not turn to the police if someone close to them became involved with people linked to Syrian terrorism.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:12 am
by innocentbystander
eCat wrote:Saint wrote:I will say this about heroin users. Yes, they do break into houses and do all kinds of things to get that next fix but I could guarantee you that if heroin were legal and cheap, junkies wouldn't bother breaking into homes or committing crimes of that nature. on the other hand, alcohol is legal and cheap and you still see people committing violent crimes (including drunk driving) when using it.
The main damage heroin does, excluding overdoses and the associated crime, is make the user a lazy ne'er do well. That will never be tolerated in America.
heroin is cheap.
Damn straight its cheap. And its only been in the last 10 years that the price crashed as much as it has. Hope and Change!
http://trump24h.com/982248/drug-overdos ... -cdc-finds
....and again, in Cincinnati
http://www.wlwt.com/article/9-year-old- ... ng/9164992
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:57 am
by Professor Tiger
I'm not an expert on such things, but I am curious about the inherent difference between heroin and other hard drugs in their negative impact on society.
Over the years I've talked to countless inmates about their drug experiences, and the vast majority of them were into crack or meth. They all seemed to have the same behaviors as heroin that negatively affect society - burglarizing, robbing, stealing and selling sex to fund their habit. They also spent time in rehab and require a lot of medical attention now due to their past addiction, just like heroin addicts.
So how is heroin worse for society than meth or crack?
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:06 am
by eCat
Professor Tiger wrote:I'm not an expert on such things, but I am curious about the inherent difference between heroin and other hard drugs in their negative impact on society.
Over the years I've talked to countless inmates about their drug experiences, and the vast majority of them were into crack or meth. They all seemed to have the same behaviors as heroin that negatively affect society - burglarizing, robbing, stealing and selling sex to fund their habit. They also spent time in rehab and require a lot of medical attention now due to their past addiction, just like heroin addicts.
So how is heroin worse for society than meth or crack?
I'm not sure anyone saying it is from a detrimental standpoint.
heroin is just plentiful , cheap and potent at the moment - plus it seems to be the path for people when they can no longer get prescription drugs they are addicted to.