The Goat Pen

If your billionaire husband co-founded AmWay and you gave 200 mil to the party in power, then you're qualified enuff.

but I do agree with IB on school value

we send kids to school for 12 years on the public taxpayer dime and they graduate with a skillset that doesn't make them much more valuable than a Mexican Immigrant.

Part of what is hurting us is this idea "you can be anything you want to be" - I don't think a kid should graduate high school with a "general education" - either they are on the college track with AP or they are on the vocational/skills track by their sophomore year.

They should also be incentivized to do well in either category. We should identify college degrees and vocations that are in demand, and kids who do well in high school and then go on to learn one those degrees/vocations that are on the "in need of list" get 20K cash or up to 20% of their college debt repaid, whatever is less. Not some tax break bullshit, but cold hard CAAAAAIIIIIISSSH Homey.

also , kids should get 2 weeks off in the summer, a week off in the fall, 2 weeks at Xmas and 1 week in the spring - otherwise they are in school. Lets get these kids learning and stop the parents from having to figure out what to do with them during the summer.

IB wrote:I don't care about where she went to college or how many dividend checks she has cashed. That is not what disqualifies her from being Secretary/Head/Czar for the Department of Education (or whateverthefuck the title is.) How many dividends she has cashed and the education at Calvin College has zero impact on her overall knowledge of public education. You are not asking the right question.

The only question you should be asking regarding DeVoss and her ability to lead this Federal Agency is, does she have enough depth of knowledge regarding what is required (mandated by the federal government) of primary, middle, and high schools, to educate not only their most gifted students, but also the marginal ones who are getting nothing more than remedial learning? I would say she doesn't. If she knew what was really happening out there (what with this infernal thing called "tracking") she would be gutting our entire education system and mandating that all 50 states start educating ALL their children such that the bottom 50% don't look at their meaningless high school diploma with a feeling of despair and utter hopelessness. Our current model ensures that this hopelessness continues unabated. THAT is what is helping to drive this Millennial feeling of.... "inequality."

Heh...you are overly didactic. I can imagine it can get off-putting. God bless those that have to manage relationships with you.

The checks comment was a throw away to highlight her lack of substantive work experience. Her alma mater means very little and wasn't meant to be highlighted, it's her degree specialization that is the problem. So, between her degree and professional experience (including her track record of devastating Michigan's public school system), she has nothing in her resume that speaks to her ability to be effective as Education Secretary. Whether the whole thing needs to be gutted, or not, is not something I am in a position to debate appropriately. I do know enough about hiring talent and identifying strengths to see that Betsy DeVos is not a smart nomination for the role.

eCat wrote:but I do agree with IB on school value

we send kids to school for 12 years on the public taxpayer dime and they graduate with a skillset that doesn't make them much more valuable than a Mexican Immigrant.

Part of what is hurting us is this idea "you can be anything you want to be" - I don't think a kid should graduate high school with a "general education" - either they are on the college track with AP or they are on the vocational/skills track by their sophomore year.

They should also be incentivized to do well in either category. We should identify college degrees and vocations that are in demand, and kids who do well in high school and then go on to learn one those degrees/vocations that are on the "in need of list" get 20K cash or up to 20% of their college debt repaid, whatever is less.

also , kids should get 2 weeks off in the summer, a week off in the fall, 2 weeks at Xmas and 1 week in the spring - otherwise they are in school.

There may be merit to all those points. I honestly don't know enough about them to say why they would be great, or where the challenges would be in making that change. I do agree, though, that how education is applied has opportunities for radical change. Not only do I think practical vocational skills aren't pushed enough, I also think logic and philosophy aren't taught and stressed enough, either. My philosophy professor (and AP English teacher in HS) spent a lot of time going through critical thought and the elements of argument. Those classes sharpened my professional steel more than my calculus classes prepared me for a job in Finance. That's a very small suggestion, I know, but the more time I spend around people the more I realize that critical thinking is more rare than the norm. People easily fall for logical fallacies, or easily throw them around like they are valid (either due to ignorance or manipulative tendencies...both are problematic). I think the STEM focus gives a bit of short shrift to that discipline.

"I'm not sure DeVoss is sophisticated enough to look at public education deeply enough to evaluate what needs to change and what needs to stay the same."

I'm not sure you're sophisticated enough to look at a turd on the sidewalk and evaluate whether you need to eat it or not...

Bklyn wrote:

IB wrote:I don't care about where she went to college or how many dividend checks she has cashed. That is not what disqualifies her from being Secretary/Head/Czar for the Department of Education (or whateverthefuck the title is.) How many dividends she has cashed and the education at Calvin College has zero impact on her overall knowledge of public education. You are not asking the right question.

The only question you should be asking regarding DeVoss and her ability to lead this Federal Agency is, does she have enough depth of knowledge regarding what is required (mandated by the federal government) of primary, middle, and high schools, to educate not only their most gifted students, but also the marginal ones who are getting nothing more than remedial learning? I would say she doesn't. If she knew what was really happening out there (what with this infernal thing called "tracking") she would be gutting our entire education system and mandating that all 50 states start educating ALL their children such that the bottom 50% don't look at their meaningless high school diploma with a feeling of despair and utter hopelessness. Our current model ensures that this hopelessness continues unabated. THAT is what is helping to drive this Millennial feeling of.... "inequality."

Heh...you are overly didactic. I can imagine it can get off-putting. God bless those that have to manage relationships with you.

The checks comment was a throw away to highlight her lack of substantive work experience. Her alma mater means very little and wasn't meant to be highlighted, it's her degree specialization that is the problem. So, between her degree and professional experience (including her track record of devastating Michigan's public school system), she has nothing in her resume that speaks to her ability to be effective as Education Secretary. Whether the whole thing needs to be gutted, or not, is not something I am in a position to debate appropriately. I do know enough about hiring talent and identifying strengths to see that Betsy DeVos is not a smart nomination for the role.

That may well be true. I'd just argue (given what is and has been happening in education for the last 71 years) that maybe there isn't ANYONE qualified to make that much of a difference.

eCat wrote:but I do agree with IB on school value

we send kids to school for 12 years on the public taxpayer dime and they graduate with a skillset that doesn't make them much more valuable than a Mexican Immigrant.

Part of what is hurting us is this idea "you can be anything you want to be" - I don't think a kid should graduate high school with a "general education" - either they are on the college track with AP or they are on the vocational/skills track by their sophomore year.

They should also be incentivized to do well in either category. We should identify college degrees and vocations that are in demand, and kids who do well in high school and then go on to learn one those degrees/vocations that are on the "in need of list" get 20K cash or up to 20% of their college debt repaid, whatever is less. Not some tax break bullshit, but cold hard CAAAAAIIIIIISSSH Homey.

also , kids should get 2 weeks off in the summer, a week off in the fall, 2 weeks at Xmas and 1 week in the spring - otherwise they are in school. Lets get these kids learning and stop the parents from having to figure out what to do with them during the summer.

If they are NOT willing to make the kind of changes necessary to elementary, middle, and high school education (such that every US citizen, regardless of their IQ and cognitive ability) has at least a chance to succeed, then any other changes to education are a terrific waste of time. Its like trying to make an old house that is rotting away from termites look pretty on the outside without first killing all the termites. Its all just bullshit.

With our current education system, the brightest kids are cranking in the information age. They get and stay married. They get employed. They get big dollars. Their communities are safe. They are growing wealthy. They live long and stay out of trouble. The lower tiered kids, not so much. Their life and future is nothing but despair, sincerely. And you can't just "throw money at the problem" the way every single politician with a "D" next to his or her name would say. The problem is much deeper than that. You need to CHANGE the system at the most fundamental level. And the politicians with the "D" next to their names are never going to allow that to happen. And the politicians with the "R" next to their name, they may be willing to change education but #1) they are not fully aware of how bad the problem is and #2) they have NO FUCKING CLUE what to do to fix the system. You need to think way outside the box. And people that creative and inventive, they don't typically go into politics and government.

hedge wrote:"I'm not sure DeVoss is sophisticated enough to look at public education deeply enough to evaluate what needs to change and what needs to stay the same."

I'm not sure you're sophisticated enough to look at a turd on the sidewalk and evaluate whether you need to eat it or not...

Go back to prison.

"The lower tiered kids, not so much. Their life and future is nothing but despair, sincerely."

I don't think only option if you're not married with a good job and plenty of money is nothing but despair. Hell, I'd say there are plenty of folks out there who are married and have a job and money who are in despair...

What does the department of education even do that needs to be done? Who handled that shit prior to 1980? Why did the precursors of today's whining, mewling teachers actually oppose the creation of the department of education in the first place?

eCat wrote:if we're going to go that route, then why not appoint some techno jock from Silicon Valley?

Maybe Trump should?

eCat wrote:I don't have a problem not going with a Washington Bureaucrat for something as important as Education, but the voucher thing is just typical GOP bullshit.

largely agree

eCat wrote:Schools are a lifeblood of a neighborhood and you can't propose a system that results in only the disengaged or neglected students stay in public schools. You think we have problems now with high school dropouts.

Our current Labor Force Participation Rate for men aged 25-54, is at the lowest point is has been since the last year of the Great Depression (1940.) We are currently at 86.5%. That means that one-man-in-seven aged 25-54 (a man's prime working years), has not worked a day for pay, all last year. That is ALL MEN regardless of religion, education (or lack-thereof), skin color, or criminal history. A high school drop out in 1965 in the 25-54 year old age bracket is more likely to be working than the average man, today.

And no one is talking about this. No one is paying attention. For the people who are working, cranking, they can't even imagine how awful life must be for the most marginal of men. They really have... no hope. Their education did them.... no good.

aTm wrote:What does the department of education even do that needs to be done? Who handled that shit prior to 1980? Why did the precursors of today's whining, mewling teachers actually oppose the creation of the department of education in the first place?

Exactly. aTm is correct. If they are going to have this department, then what are they supposed to do exactly? I'd argue their primary goal should be to evaluate our current economy and make whatever changes necessary to make sure our children are being educated such that all our people can (in some small way) contribute. Education has been failing at that (miserably failing) for the last 25+ years. I blame "tracking."

If it is a "D" in the White House, the primary goal of the DOE is to make sure teachers are protected (more property tax dollars, higher salaries, more hiring, unions, contracts, pensions, & tenure.) If it is an "R" in the White House, the primary goal is to try and AVOID the public education system altogether (charter schools, school vouchers, etc.) They are both wrong. You need to GUT education, from beginning to end. Its fucked up. And it will remain fucked up so long as you don't fix it.

hedge wrote:"The lower tiered kids, not so much. Their life and future is nothing but despair, sincerely."

I don't think only option if you're not married with a good job and plenty of money is nothing but despair. Hell, I'd say there are plenty of folks out there who are married and have a job and money who are in despair...

I'm sure you are right about that Hedge. But the people born with higher IQs had a chance with the current system as it is currently designed. If the smartest ones are in misery, it is most likely their own poor life choices. The ones born with marginal intelligence, no amount of money thrown at them (within the bounds of our current education system) is going to help them. The marginal students were fucked right in the ass, from the get go. And no lube was used in that process.

innocentbystander wrote:

hedge wrote:"I'm not sure DeVoss is sophisticated enough to look at public education deeply enough to evaluate what needs to change and what needs to stay the same."

I'm not sure you're sophisticated enough to look at a turd on the sidewalk and evaluate whether you need to eat it or not...

Go back to prison.

Some of our best literary minds are in the American penal system...

https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live ... 8838?snl=1

Maybe it's just me, but you always seem uncomfortably eager to use those metaphors that you ended that post with...

hedge wrote:Maybe it's just me, but you always seem uncomfortably eager to use those metaphors that you ended that post with...

Given your past, I'd tend to think that you have some personal experiences such that those metaphors of mine bring back some very fond memories for you.

Had we only listened to IB's wise counsel and made the right choice wrt Willard Mitt Romney...we'd certainly not be in this situation, edging toward the brink of endtimes.

If I could turn back time If I could find a way
I'd take back those words that hurt you
and you'd stay

bluetick wrote:Had we only listened to IB's wise counsel and made the right choice wrt Willard Mitt Romney...we'd certainly not be in this situation, edging toward the brink of endtimes.

If I could turn back time If I could find a way
I'd take back those words that hurt you
and you'd stay

End times? You don't say. I didn't know you were religious bluetick. I figured you for an atheist. I hope I get raptured. I couldn't imagine being one of the "Leftovers."

Everyone should have listened to me. But even the GOP isn't listening now, certainly not listening to the voters. If you ask your average establishment GOP politician why it is exactly that Romney lost in 2012 but Trump won with an even worse demographic disadvantage in 2016, I don't think they even have the first clue.

seems about right for the kind of protesters we have now -

http://www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/Sani ... 54433.html

eCat wrote:seems about right for the kind of protesters we have now -

http://www.kfyrtv.com/content/news/Sani ... 54433.html

its too bad these protestors had to emulate Occupy Wall Street and couldn't be as responsible as the majority of the people participating in Burning Man. they are required to clean up all their mess at Burning Man. and many of the girls walk around naked