Neither is internment camps, slavery and government sponsored ethnic cleansing. We deeply regretted those and swore to learn from that and never repeat it.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:16 am
by Bklyn
BigRedMan wrote:Amazing what 20 years can do.....
Wrong is wrong. It's not a comparative analysis. The herring is well cooked, though.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:18 am
by Bklyn
Bklyn wrote:
... it is interesting to see so many people shrug off this chaos or make excuses for day after day of missteps and ineptitude. The stakes get higher every day and how the administration has performed so far, makes me think this will end horribly.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:15 am
by eCat
Bklyn wrote:
eCat wrote:so this isn't a new thing in America
Neither is internment camps, slavery and government sponsored ethnic cleansing. We deeply regretted those and swore to learn from that and never repeat it.
I'm not going to regret a 90 temporary ban on people from countries we deem a risk.
ever
speaking of which, part of the power that gives President Trump to do it came about not in 1952, or 1965, but during the Obama presidency.
Section 1187(a)(12), which governs the Visa Waiver Program. This statute empowers the executive branch to waive the documentation requirements for certain aliens. In it, Congress itself expressly discriminates based on country of origin. Under this provision, Congress provides that an alien is eligible for the waiver only if he or she has not been present (a) in Iraq or Syria any time after March 1, 2011; (b) in any country whose government is designated by the State Department as “repeatedly providing support for acts of international terrorism”; or (c) in any country that has been designated by the Department of Homeland Security as a country “of concern.”
----Sarah Harvard at Mic also recounts the history:
So, in a nutshell, Obama restricted visa waivers for those seven Muslim-majority countries — Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Libya and Yemen — and now, Trump is looking to bar immigration and visitors from the same list of countries.
Where were the cries of "that's not who we are!" when this came about?
I guess wrong isn't so wrong if its your guy that does it.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:21 am
by Cletus
This is good. After reading this, the incompetence worries me more than the obvious bigotry and racism.
Neither is internment camps, slavery and government sponsored ethnic cleansing. We deeply regretted those and swore to learn from that and never repeat it.
I'm not going to regret a 90 temporary ban on people from countries we deem a risk.
ever
speaking of which, part of the power that gives President Trump to do it came about not in 1952, or 1965, but during the Obama presidency.
Section 1187(a)(12), which governs the Visa Waiver Program. This statute empowers the executive branch to waive the documentation requirements for certain aliens. In it, Congress itself expressly discriminates based on country of origin. Under this provision, Congress provides that an alien is eligible for the waiver only if he or she has not been present (a) in Iraq or Syria any time after March 1, 2011; (b) in any country whose government is designated by the State Department as “repeatedly providing support for acts of international terrorism”; or (c) in any country that has been designated by the Department of Homeland Security as a country “of concern.”
----Sarah Harvard at Mic also recounts the history:
So, in a nutshell, Obama restricted visa waivers for those seven Muslim-majority countries — Iran, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, Libya and Yemen — and now, Trump is looking to bar immigration and visitors from the same list of countries.
Where were the cries of "that's not who we are!" when this came about?
I guess its OK if the non-racist president does it.
Again, right or wrong is not partisan. Miss me with the comparative analysis on this one.
The sloppiness of execution (regardless of the merits of the legidlation) would be embarrassing and unacceptable at a corporate entity. To have it happen at the federal government level should give everyone pause. For it not to, shameful shit.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:31 am
by eCat
apparently it is partisan because you only have outrage for Trump acting on the groundwork defined by the Obama administration.
Trump didn't pull those countries out of thin air. The Obama administration defined those countries - and the people coming from them as an area of concern for no other logical purpose than to lay the groundwork to enact this kind of legislation/ EO/ whatever at the appropriate time.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:38 am
by Bklyn
Cletus wrote:This is good. After reading this, the incompetence worries me more than the obvious bigotry and racism.
This what have happens when you have an authoritarian in leadership.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:42 am
by Bklyn
eCat wrote:apparently it is partisan because you only have outrage for Trump acting on the groundwork defined by the Obama administration.
Trump didn't pull those countries out of thin air. The Obama administration defined those countries - and the people coming from them as an area of concern for no other logical purpose than to lay the groundwork to enact this kind of legislation/ EO/ whatever at the appropriate time.
No, eCat. What I am saying is that I disagreed with Obama actions too. That is besides the point.
The execution of what Trump is doing has been horrible. Something like this would get me fired or demoted if I handled things in this way in my job. Forget the merits of the policy or the action. This is a shitshow of government action from an execution standpoint.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:51 am
by eCat
Bklyn wrote:
eCat wrote:apparently it is partisan because you only have outrage for Trump acting on the groundwork defined by the Obama administration.
Trump didn't pull those countries out of thin air. The Obama administration defined those countries - and the people coming from them as an area of concern for no other logical purpose than to lay the groundwork to enact this kind of legislation/ EO/ whatever at the appropriate time.
No, eCat. What I am saying is that I disagreed with Obama actions too. That is besides the point.
The execution of what Trump is doing has been horrible. Something like this would get me fired or demoted if I handled things in this way in my job. Forget the merits of the policy or the action. This is a shitshow of government action from an execution standpoint.
show me where you disagreed with the Obama actions on here with the same invective you did for Trump.
wrong is wrong.
I'm not concerned with the execution/shitshow. He could have a perfect implementation of his plan and the reaction from the legal and progressive community would have been the same, the articles decrying the distancing of our American values would be the same, and you and Cletus would have the same level of outrage over the actions.
So really, the execution of a second week president with no political experience should be no surprise nor is it the issue.
What is a surprise is that people are shocked that he is doing what he'd said he'd do, what he was elected to do.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:00 pm
by Bklyn
I don't write every disagreement with politicians on here. I don't write every thing I think Obama did great on here. That's a silly request.
You're right, though, even on the things I disagreed with I would not feel as threatened by those missteps as I do with Trump. To me, though, that''s besides the point.
Making missteps happens but my concern is the blatant disregard from ever learnin from those missteps. This isn't the first Executive Order that bypassed review by the OLC or commentary from the Departments tasked with enforcing it. He doesn't care, apparently. That is bothersome. You're good with it. I am not. I woder if you are being objective. Maybe we'll come back to this conversation down the road and have it be productive.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:32 pm
by eCat
I've said multiple times I know he's going to do stuff that pisses me off
Dismantling Net Neutrality is one of them.
I'm sure we'll have discussions about Trump overstepping his bounds
This won't be one of them.
I voted for this.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:31 pm
by Saint
eCat wrote:apparently it is partisan because you only have outrage for Trump acting on the groundwork defined by the Obama administration.
Trump didn't pull those countries out of thin air. The Obama administration defined those countries - and the people coming from them as an area of concern for no other logical purpose than to lay the groundwork to enact this kind of legislation/ EO/ whatever at the appropriate time.
Apparently he didn't pull them out of thin air (as you seem to be doing with your defense of it here) because he left out 3 countries that produced 9/11 terrorists in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Again, Trump omits from the terrorist profile Arab countries in which American companies are vested and all the rubes are praising his commitment to national security. When will you dumbasses ever learn? Apparently never.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:33 pm
by Saint
Also, before you run back to Breitbart for another talking point, the Visa Waiver Bill from Obama's final year was similar but markedly different from what Trump did with his EO with one of the main differences lumping green-card holders in with everyone else.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:01 pm
by Cletus
Saint wrote:Also, before you run back to Breitbart for another talking point, the Visa Waiver Bill from Obama's final year was similar but markedly different from what Trump did with his EO with one of the main differences lumping green-card holders in with everyone else.
The green card thing is the most upsetting part of this. But, I guess kicking out legal residents who have the wrong background or skin color is the inevitable consequence of electing a guy who has a Nazi as his right hand man.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:19 pm
by Saint
Now Eliot Cohen, one of W's neocons who pushed for the invasion of Iraq, is speaking out against Trump and the chaos he will continue to bring.
Saint wrote:Now Eliot Cohen, one of W's neocons who pushed for the invasion of Iraq, is speaking out against Trump and the chaos he will continue to bring.
eCat wrote:apparently it is partisan because you only have outrage for Trump acting on the groundwork defined by the Obama administration.
Trump didn't pull those countries out of thin air. The Obama administration defined those countries - and the people coming from them as an area of concern for no other logical purpose than to lay the groundwork to enact this kind of legislation/ EO/ whatever at the appropriate time.
Apparently he didn't pull them out of thin air (as you seem to be doing with your defense of it here) because he left out 3 countries that produced 9/11 terrorists in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Again, Trump omits from the terrorist profile Arab countries in which American companies are vested and all the rubes are praising his commitment to national security. When will you dumbasses ever learn? Apparently never.
so you're saying he should expand the ban to include Egypt, Saudi and Turkey?
I'm good with that. We're on the same page.
let me make sure I understand
Obama not including green card but limiting noted countries by restricting visas - not a muslim ban, and its OK
Trump including green card using countries noted by Obama's restricted visas *is* a muslim ban and is a bad thing.
and thats why its markedly different.
Re: Florida State Seminoles
Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 2:33 pm
by Saint
Yet, no terrorist act in the US since 9/11 has been committed by anyone other than residents or those with legal rights to be here and own guns.