The Goat Pen

AlabamAlum wrote:Kennesee and Tennetucky?

Ed Zachery

Like many liberals, he probably considers himself exquisitely tolerant and open to all points of view, and extremely reluctant to impose his personal views on others. But like most liberals, he actually tolerates no dissent whatsoever and will send those who dare disagree with him to the gulags if given the chance.

Because striking down a law that restricts a basic freedom to only a limited set of people just smacks of tyranny and is basically the same thing and setting up a concentration camp system for your political enemies.

Professor Tiger wrote:If that is your argument, then the vast majority of your fellow African American pastors are also sexists. Particularly in California, where they were the reason Prop 8 passed. Are those hundreds of thousands of African American pastors and Christians also "unable to wrap their head around the fact that women can vote, exercise self determination, manage their uteruses . . . and serve as judges in Minnesota... er... Wisconsin?.

Not a vast majority, but a large plurality of my AA colleagues ARE sexist, homophobic and extremely hypocritical, especially when it comes to narrowly and incorrectly interpreting the Bible to oppress others, even as the Bible was narrowly and incorrectly interpreted to oppress African Americans.

While the black vote was a major part of the passage of Prop 8, the key factor was the Mormon church - they put an incredible amount of money and field workers on the ground to pass it. I didn't realize until then that California has more Mormons than Utah.

One day at a time

Guns Don't Kill People, Part 73,564

http://news.yahoo.com/five-dead-las-veg ... 57183.html

Washington (AFP) - Two Las Vegas police officers and a civilian were killed Sunday in an apparent ambush that ended with the two gunmen killing themselves, local media reported Sunday.

Of note:

The attackers then headed to a nearby Walmart store, exchanging gunfire with and ultimately killing a civilian who was carrying a concealed weapon.

Guess the old "armed citizens will stop mass shootings" slogan may have worked, albeit not too well for said armed citizen . . .

If I post a story where the good samaritan stops the bad guy, would it sway you?

AlabamAlum wrote:If I post a story where the good samaritan stops the bad guy, would it sway you?

Depends on:

1 - how many times per thousand a GS stops a bad guy
2 - how many times the GS ends up dead or hurting someone else
3 - how many times the potential GS ends up shooting his wife or having his kid get into the gun locker with disastrous results

I've seen several different stories from the gun lobby purporting that "good Samaritans" stop anywhere from 10% to 17% of mass shooters. The most credible sources I've read said that there hasn't been an active shooter stopped by an ordinary citizen in over 30 years, and that the ones that the gun lobby point to were cases where either 1) the shooter was done killing/ran out of ammo, or 2) the "ordinary citizens" were off-duty cops and or military personnel.

Grundy, VA (2002) - law school shooter stopped by students of the school . . . who happened to be active law enforcement agents

Edinboro, PA (1998) - middle school shooter held at gun point by business owner . . . after the kid had ditched his gun

Pearl, MS (1997) - high school shooter detained by Ass't Principal . . . who was also an Army Ranger reservist and the kid was out of ammo

Colorado Springs, CO (2007) - church shooter shot by another church member . . . who was also the church's on-duty armed security guard and a retired cop

Winnemucca, NV (2008) - bar shooter killed by a bar patron . . . who was an active duty Marine

And then there's:

Tacoma, WA (2005) - citizen takes on mall shooter, is hit several times, going into a coma while 6 bystanders around the citizen are wounded in the crossfire

Tyler, TX (2005) - licensed firearms instructor takes on courthouse shooter . . . and is killed by the shooter.

So, if your point is: off-duty cops, active duty military and active reservists can thwart mass shooters, you'll get no argument from me. But if your point is Joe Six-Pack and Bubba Beer Belly should be allowed to patrol the streets with their Sig Sauers in case a nut shows up - no thank you. Joe and Bubba are more likely to hurt themselves or the innocent.

There are plenty of stories. There are roughly 2 million uses of guns by private citizens a year to stop assaults, crime. And in this latest one you posted, two trained officers were killed and one Good Samaritan. Is that an indictment against officers carrying, too? I doubt you'll see it that way. This Good Samaritan's actions may be why the bad guys didn't go on to shoot other people. We don't quite have all the facts, and we should, before we go tap dancing on his grave in hopes of making some ridiculous anti-gun argument.

Personally, I've been the target of serious crime twice in my life. Both times I was able to subdue the criminals without firing a shot, but my pistol did make the difference both times. While it's true that I'm not the normal gun owner, in that I shot competitively, it is also true that I am not a cop or an ex-Marine or whatever. Both instances did not make big news because no one was hurt and no one was robbed.

One has to be only slightly familiar with the internet to find oodles of stories where home intruders were thwarted, killed or maimed by the gun owning home owner. But that isn't even the point. Gun controllers only use hyped mass shootings because that's what their MSM allies use. It's impossible to measure events that never happen....but again, I digress. The 2nd A says absolutely ZERO about crime, it is written on the basis of free men, w/guns, will remain free....from the tyranny of kings/democrats/over reaching government. We have already lost an objective press.

" Your inaccuracy about the judge's state is about as irrelevant to the discussion as my inaccuracy about her gender."

Um, not quite...

There is a common thread amongst these shooters and that their actions were drug influenced whether prescribed or not.

AlabamAlum wrote:There are plenty of stories. There are roughly 2 million uses of guns by private citizens a year to stop assaults, crime.

Two MILLION? Annually? That's 5,500 per day! I assume that is some sort of a typo on your part. Otherwise, the NRA would stamp that number on everyone's forehead.

Toemeesleather wrote:One has to be only slightly familiar with the internet to find oodles of stories where home intruders were thwarted, killed or maimed by the gun owning home owner.

Yes, but compare those to the number of stories where the homeowner does something incredibly stupid with the gun, like:

A Texas homeowner was shot dead by police after he shot and killed a career criminal who broke into his home Thursday night, authorities say.

The Dallas Morning News reports police did not realize 57-year-old William Keith Hall was defending his home when they arrived, and that Hall ignored the officers’ repeated demands he drop his weapon.

Maj. Jeff Cotner tells the paper Hall pointed a pistol at police officers and witnesses on the scene, and that he had plenty of time to “de-escalate the situation.”

“He was given plenty of notice, and he didn’t choose a path other than to confront officers,” Cotner said.

Hall also allegedly pointed his gun at a contractor working on a house nearby who called 911 after hearing the shots.

The Fayette County Sheriff’s Office is investigating a May 4 shooting in which a homeowner mistakenly shot his younger brother during the night at a home on Sandy Lake Circle, according to Sheriff Barry Babb.

The sleeping resident awoke during the night to what he thought was an intruder, but it was actually his guest and younger brother who had gone to use the restroom, Babb said.

NOBLESVILLE, Ind. - A Hamilton County homeowner accidentally shot himself after hearing a suspicious noise outside his home early Friday.

Dispatchers said the shooting was reported just after 6 a.m. in the 12500 block of 196th Street in Noblesville.

The 66-year-old homeowner went outside to investigate the suspicious noise when he fired the gun.

The bullet grazed his head and he was hospitalized with non-life-threatening injuries.

OOLTEWAH, HAMILTON COUNTY -
(WRCB) - Scary moments in Ooltewah, where Hamilton County deputies were called to an Anne Street address early Thursday morning.

The elderly homeowner's daughter gave deputies permission to force their way into the home.

Inside, they found the 90-year-old man with a handgun.

He fired his gun, thinking he was being robbed.

Rodrigo Diaz, 22, was driving around with his girlfriend and two friends on Saturday night when he pulled into a driveway, thinking they had arrived at another friend’s house, his brother says. But instead he pulled into the driveway of Phillip Sailors, 69, who thought his home was being robbed, his lawyer says. Sailors then shot Diaz, according to the police report, citing what Sailors told officers at the scene. Diaz later died while in the intensive care unit.

“Basically, what happened is they were looking for one of my brother’s girlfriend’s friends,” says his brother David E. Diaz-Valencia, 23. “The guy came outside and my brother’s girlfriend said he was screaming, ‘Get off my property!’ and he shot into the air. My brother was backing out fast because he was scared and he rolled down the window to say he was sorry and he was not doing anything wrong. Then the guy shot him in his head.”

A 4-year-old girl accidentally shot her 4-year-old cousin to death with a loaded rifle that she found under a bed at their grandfather's Detroit home, police said Friday.

On Sunday, 3-year-old Damon C. Holbrook found a .40-caliber handgun loaded with 15 rounds in an unlocked case in a bedroom closet in the Dundee, Michigan house where he lived with his father and two siblings and another family. While the adults in the house were talking in the kitchen, Damon was playing by himself in a first-floor bedroom when he found the gun and accidentally shot himself in the head and died. He was rushed to a hospital in Ann Arbor and died just about an hour later.

I realize there are many responsible, sober minded gun owners and I have no problem with you all going to the range or stalking deer or heading out to the farm to pump rounds into your old 69 VW minivan.

But as for home defense, the reality is that the best option for a homeowner is almost always to call 911. The gun lobby promotes this "Charles Bronson" image of the gun owner taking back his neighborhood and you end up with 20,000,000 Barney Fifes patrolling a supermarket with loaded weapons.

Instead of targeting firearms, maybe we should have a war on drugs. Oh, wait...

JD:

It depends on what you consider 'gun use' ....but whatever. Let's drop the number to what the Violence Policy Center says: 68,000 self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes per year. For what it's worth, the VPC is very anti-gun.

Anyway, I don't think your mind will be changed. As such, this conversation will bear no fruit. I've had this same discourse with too many of the anti-gun crowd. In the end, it is distilled down to an 'agree to disagree' situation and I just don't have the energy to go through all the steps to get to that point. Again.

So, let's skip ahead: agree to disagree.

The Vegas killers were white supremacists and they covered the dead policemens bodies with a "don't tread on me" flag.

Those Gadsden flags are conspicuous at particular gatherings, of course.

I'm all for concealed-carry by responsible trained-and-licensed citizens...but what's going on in Texas is fucking nuts.

And furthermore . . .

If the concern is home defense, most people get the wrong weapon, anyway. I worked in Hollywood before going into the ministry full time and I know a number of "Hollywood liberals" who are gun owners (a lot of ministers, too, even in liberal California), and for most of them, they want the gun for the "cool" factor. A major - MAJOR - Hollywood action star stole a (really cool) gun from the set and the head of the studio had to call him and ask him for the gun back (the guy could've just bought the same model gun in the store, but it was easier to keep the one they issued to him).

There's a "cool" factor to owning a Sig Sauer P-250 with the extended Law Enforcement clip, or a Double Eagle with the fitted grips, but if someone breaks into your home, there's nothing better than a double barrel, break action shotgun with buck shot (or flechettes). Wide dispersion pattern, no chance of jamming, if the first barrel doesn't do it, unload with the other. No one is getting into a running gun battle needing 13-15 rounds.

AlabamAlum wrote:JD:

It depends on what you consider 'gun use' ....but whatever. Let's drop the number to what the Violence Policy Center says: 68,000 self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes per year. For what it's worth, the VPC is very anti-gun.

Anyway, I don't think your mind will be changed. As such, this conversation will bear no fruit. I've had this same discourse with too many of the anti-gun crowd. In the end, it is distilled down to an 'agree to disagree' situation and I just don't have the energy to go through all the steps to get to that point. Again.

So, let's skip ahead: agree to disagree.

Just to be clear, AA, I'm not for an elimination of gun-ownership rights. I just think 1) it should be harder to buy a gun than get a driver's license, and 2) gun ownership should be tracked like car ownership.

Yes, no one EVER does anything stoopid (like causing death/injury to innocent people) with a registered automobile......more circular lib logic.

JD:

I have shotguns; I love shotguns. They're fine for relatively untrained users in a forward threat, ensconced scenario. They are not good in crowded house situations, multiple targets, or when movement is mandated around tight corners. In those situations, a handgun is optimal. It's why police don't just carry shotguns.

I don't agree that it should be harder to purchase a gun than get a drivers license, and I am against tracking. Pandora's box has been opened, guns are already out there and criminals aren't going to register. What happens will be like what happened in NY: a paper published the names and addresses of every gun owner in the area, and ultimately that registration will be used for confiscation with a little more of an anti-gun pendulum swing.