Florida State Seminoles

[Saint]

The Dems, for better or worse, will be relevant again in 2 years (if we're still around).

[BigRedMan]

Yes, you fucking stupid irresponsible people. And, if you don't want to be called xenophobic, homophobic, and racist, don't elect and loudly support a guy who is in the process of setting up a xenophobic, homophobic, and racist government.

I know right??
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/po ... elect.html

Only two women and a African-American with a PHD so far on the cabinet. Just so terrible and white of him.

[eCat]

The Dems, for better or worse, will be relevant again in 2 years (if we're still around).

probably, but think what he can do in that time

[Saint]

I know and that's what scares me and should scare you. 4 years of HIllary would have been a slow decline. 2 years of Trump could be the end of Life As We Know It.

[eCat]

I know and that's what scares me and should scare you. 4 years of HIllary would have been a slow decline. 2 years of Trump could be the end of Life As We Know It.

yet every day you show up here complaining about the status quo

if anyone wants the system to blow up it should be you

[hedge]

"he is going to give the red states a voice - you know - the majority of the country"

Actually, that's not true, as even this election has shown, with Hillary getting over 2 million more votes than Trump. If the west coast, the northeast and a handful of the major metropolitan areas broke off and formed a separate county, it would be far more populous with far more wealth and financial resources than the red states. I'm not suggesting that's going to happen or that it should happen or anything like that, just stating a fact...

[Saint]

I know and that's what scares me and should scare you. 4 years of HIllary would have been a slow decline. 2 years of Trump could be the end of Life As We Know It.

yet every day you show up here complaining about the status quo

if anyone wants the system to blow up it should be you

Dude, try to keep up. I want the imperialist capitalist system to blow up, so Trump is not my Chosen One.

[Saint]

I know and that's what scares me and should scare you. 4 years of HIllary would have been a slow decline. 2 years of Trump could be the end of Life As We Know It.

yet every day you show up here complaining about the status quo

if anyone wants the system to blow up it should be you

And to be clear, it's MY status quo that I complain about. If I was in your situation, I wouldn't be griping the way you do.

[hedge]

Some folks are born silver spoon in hand
Lord, don't they help themselves,
But when the taxman comes to the door
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale

[eCat]

"he is going to give the red states a voice - you know - the majority of the country"

Actually, that's not true, as even this election has shown, with Hillary getting over 2 million more votes than Trump. If the west coast, the northeast and a handful of the major metropolitan areas broke off and formed a separate county, it would be far more populous with far more wealth and financial resources than the red states. I'm not suggesting that's going to happen or that it should happen or anything like that, just stating a fact...

I was pretty clear that the majority represented the number of states, not the population of the coasts. If California wants to secede, I'm all for going Lincoln on them, burning their shit to the ground and kill at least 2% of the population. Lincoln was considered a great president for doing that. I think Trump will be too.

[eCat]

And to be clear, it's MY status quo that I complain about. If I was in your situation, I wouldn't be griping the way you do.

yea, but I'm not looking out just for myself - I'm trying to make it better for all Americans. Not to overly generalize, but that's a basic difference in liberals - they don't have solutions for everyone, they only focus on subsets of society at large with the expectation that everyone else is going to support them. From Religion to Gun Control, they have all the answers for government telling people what they should do. Obamacare is a perfect example - there are people who are suffering because they don't have insurance, I know, lets put together a plan that fucks up insurance for everyone - now everyone has shitty insurance they can't afford so we're all equal! But for the poorest we'll subsidize it with money we don't have and just talk about subsidized insurance likes its just a god given right. Now the government is paying for insurance the poorest people can't afford and we'll just turn a deaf ear to the millions of Americans who used to have access to decent insurance that was relatively affordable. And when they complain we'll remind them how great it is that we're now subsidizing the poor people. That's how you win elections....oh and if you complain about it, you're a racist. Oh and did I mention the poorest people still can't afford the deductibles and that its a ponzi scheme that requires millennials to foot the bill but there are no effective penalties to enforce it so its all going to blow up in another year anyways?

I have a pretty good lot in life right now, but I want a better country for everyone - and it starts by stopping this idea that we have to lower our standards for the working class to the common denominator of the world and that more government is the solution to your problems. I don't want my kids to have to be the top 5% of their class to have a shot at being middle class, while the regular kids that go to school 12 years of their life have just as few prospects for gainful employment than a Mexican who crossed the border 2 weeks ago.

its a basic difference between the idea that if things break bad, the government will take care of you versus you being able to take care of yourself. I'm always going to vote for someone who I think is more about creating an environment that will let you take care of yourself.

Hillary was all about the government taking care of you.

[Jungle Rat]

So when does this holiday weekend end because I'm getting tired. The meth is wearing off.

Don't worry. I saved some for the Bengals last stand.

[10ac]

Obamacare is a perfect example - there are people who are suffering because they don't have insurance, I know, lets put together a plan that fucks up insurance for everyone but exempt ourselves of course...

FYP

[Saint]

Well, you have to decide if the problem is gov't or if the problem is a gov't run by big business. I've always gone with the latter premise along with the notion that gov't, not the one we've had in my lifetime, is our, the middle class, best way out of the continuing corporatization of our country. But then I realize that's pretty much been the norm since the beginning, with a few grace periods along the way. The most notable was during and after WWII when the US really did have a common goal of defeating the Axis powers and then in the afterglow when goodwill ruled. Since then, with the exception of the dot-com '90s when big money loosened its strings in pursuit of a new industry, we've pretty much been reduced to taking what they've given us.

Now we're at a point where basic healthcare, as well as the American Dream of home ownership, is reaching a tipping point. I'll be the first to tell you that Obamacare sucks but forgive me if I'm not excited that Trump is going to fix it. After all, I've been concerned about the cost of health care and insurance since the early '90s when I was no longer on my father's work policy. Since then the GOP hasn't paid one bit of attention to the problem other than fight it every step of the way. Now they're going to fix it? I don't buy it so while Obama's solution ended up sucking for me, it was an attempt to rein in a vital issue. I don't know what the answer is, except to lower the cost of every goddamn thing and I don't believe that's going to happen.

I don't care about taxes. i see HIllary talking about making big companies pay their fair share and that's all well and good but that's just money going to the gov't and not me. What about just making everything affordable again? People get so caught up in taxes they seem to forget that they spend more money on mortgage/rent, insurance, groceries, utilities, gas, clothes and everything else than they do on taxes. Plus, everything you buy now sucks. I have a pair of Levis 501s that aren't even a year old and the crotch blew out when I got in my car last week. That's 40-fucking-dollars. I could have bought goddamn Wranglers and still had $20.

I hope Trump does fix things. I just don''t have any hope that he will and I fear that he's going to make it worse for everyone but himself because that's been his history.

[eCat]

Well, you have to decide if the problem is gov't or if the problem is a gov't run by big business. I've always gone with the latter premise along with the notion that gov't, not the one we've had in my lifetime, is our, the middle class, best way out of the continuing corporatization of our country. But then I realize that's pretty much been the norm since the beginning, with a few grace periods along the way. The most notable was during and after WWII when the US really did have a common goal of defeating the Axis powers and then in the afterglow when goodwill ruled. Since then, with the exception of the dot-com '90s when big money loosened its strings in pursuit of a new industry, we've pretty much been reduced to taking what they've given us.

Now we're at a point where basic healthcare, as well as the American Dream of home ownership, is reaching a tipping point. I'll be the first to tell you that Obamacare sucks but forgive me if I'm not excited that Trump is going to fix it. After all, I've been concerned about the cost of health care and insurance since the early '90s when I was no longer on my father's work policy. Since then the GOP hasn't paid one bit of attention to the problem other than fight it every step of the way. Now they're going to fix it? I don't buy it so while Obama's solution ended up sucking for me, it was an attempt to rein in a vital issue. I don't know what the answer is, except to lower the cost of every goddamn thing and I don't believe that's going to happen.

I don't care about taxes. i see HIllary talking about making big companies pay their fair share and that's all well and good but that's just money going to the gov't and not me. What about just making everything affordable again? People get so caught up in taxes they seem to forget that they spend more money on mortgage/rent, insurance, groceries, utilities, gas, clothes and everything else than they do on taxes. Plus, everything you buy now sucks. I have a pair of Levis 501s that aren't even a year old and the crotch blew out when I got in my car last week. That's 40-fucking-dollars. I could have bought goddamn Wranglers and still had $20.

I hope Trump does fix things. I just don''t have any hope that he will and I fear that he's going to make it worse for everyone but himself because that's been his history.

Trump may not do a damn thing. Its more likely he won't, but that's really not the point. Stop looking to government to fix it because the only solution to government is more and bigger government. That's a democratic mindset - healthcare, housing, education, - more , bigger. You're not happy with your lot in life, ask the government to fix it for you.

now I'm not happy with the idea that the GOP has in regard to using the government to enforce morality and I'm not happy with the GOP's mentality that we have to be the worlds police. Trump doesn't seem as extreme on these ideas as the typical neocon but he's still catering to the base. But I had two choices. I chose the candidate that wants to reduce the pool of unskilled labor, call up CEOs who want to move jobs overseas and thinks taxes are too oppressive for real economic growth. The other choice was a candidate that believed in open borders , open trade and large government social programs.

[Saint]

The argument that the solution is less gov't in the face of corporations running this country seems counterintuitive. Like everyone else, you seem to want the gov't that works for you. Like I said, the problem with this country, if not the world, is that everyone only wants what's best for him or her. I'm guilty of that, too, but I have the insight to see it for what it is.

On the other hand, a corporate-run gov't would seem to want to support social programs to keep its citizenry from open revolt, so perhaps you have a point. I just have the firm belief that it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it does. That would be true if Hillary were elected but it's going to be much quicker under Trump.

[eCat]

The argument that the solution is less gov't in the face of corporations running this country seems counterintuitive. Like everyone else, you seem to want the gov't that works for you. Like I said, the problem with this country, if not the world, is that everyone only wants what's best for him or her. I'm guilty of that, too, but I have the insight to see it for what it is.

On the other hand, a corporate-run gov't would seem to want to support social programs to keep its citizenry from open revolt, so perhaps you have a point. I just have the firm belief that it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better, if it does. That would be true if Hillary were elected but it's going to be much quicker under Trump.

Government cannot create anything - it has no product to produce. If it gives to one, it has to take from another. Hillary and Bernie we're all in on the whole take from one to give to another.

It doesn't create independence - it creates a society that is enslaved by the government which is what the government wants to maintain power.

I want cheap health care, I want free education, I want subsidized housing and I want it even after the government is so deep in debt it can't pay for its obligations. Just take it from the wealthy corporations and richest people and give it to me.

If thinking that having a government in place that has sustainable and solvent budget policies is wanting only what's best for him or her, then you are right.

I want a government that is going to enact policies that will create jobs for the mass of unskilled labor in this country so they can be self sustaining and in turn, add to the tax base - not take from it.
Adding a boatload of Mexicans every year will not do that. Entering into trade agreements that flood our markets with foreign goods without reciprocity will not do that.

Will Trump do that? I don't have faith that he will, but he's at least he looks in that direction. Hillary was perfectly content playing both sides of the fence - telling the people she'd give them what they wanted while stuffing her bank account with corporate and foreign donations.

[hedge]

First you say government cannot create anything and then 3 paragraphs later you say you want a government that creates jobs. Why not go all the way and admit that government can't even do that. And why should we expect them to? Almost everybody has been brainwashed into believing that it is the job of the government to do something for them, the only difference is, as Stu said, what's best for one person (or at least what one person thinks is best for them) is not the same for everybody. But the core belief that the government can/should do something is universal. That's the problem. I realize we're never going to get to the point where most people believe or want a truly libertarian view that the federal government should not be involved in much more than national defense (and even that should be reduced by at least half and probably much more), but it's an attractive theory to me. Of course that could easily turn into a "let them eat cake" oligarchy as it has so many times in history when there were no protections in place for the lower classes, which is about 90% of the population, so maybe there really has been a calculated decision by the upper 1% to just give shit away to keep the natives from becoming too restless. Pretty smart business plan if it is...

[eCat]

First you say government cannot create anything and then 3 paragraphs later you say you want a government that creates jobs. Why not go all the way and admit that government can't even do that. And why should we expect them to? Almost everybody has been brainwashed into believing that it is the job of the government to do something for them, the only difference is, as Stu said, what's best for one person (or at least what one person thinks is best for them) is not the same for everybody. But the core belief that the government can/should do something is universal. That's the problem. I realize we're never going to get to the point where most people believe or want a truly libertarian view that the federal government should not be involved in much more than national defense (and even that should be reduced by at least half and probably much more), but it's an attractive theory to me. Of course that could easily turn into a "let them eat cake" oligarchy as it has so many times in history when there were no protections in place for the lower classes, which is about 90% of the population, so maybe there really has been a calculated decision by the upper 1% to just give shit away to keep the natives from becoming too restless. Pretty smart business plan if it is...

I said I want a government that will enact policies that will create jobs. I don't think the government has a responsibility to create a $15 an hour drywall job but they do have responsibility to limit immigration, trade and taxes among other things so that someone in the private sector can and is motivated to create a $15 an hour drywall job.

[Saint]

That's still one of the most asinine arguments there is. Gov't creates plenty of things, just like similar businesses in the private sector that build roads, bridges, buildings, to name a few, and provide all kinds of services.

If you want an industry that produces nothing (except profit for its shareholders off the backs of customers), try banks. It's not coincidental that banks have managed to work their filthy tentacles into the upper reaches of our gov't and at great folly to its citizens.

Seriously, eCat, your arguments these days are retrograde. I get that Hillary was an unattractive candidate but you and most people miss the point that what is threatening the middle class isn't a bloated govt so much as it is a bloated finance system that has spawned greed and turbulence in other vital industries, namely, health care, and is using the gov't to do its bidding. The rot is way beyond blaming one politician or one party or even one political philosophy because it's festering at nearly every level of our gov't, our economy and even our society.

So yeah, given that, maybe a Trump-induced holocaust can deliver mankind back to kinder, gentler time. I'm hoping I can just go up in flames and not have to deal with it but I do have a baseball bat wrapped in barbed wire just in case I survive.