The Goat Pen

hedge wrote:"The pro-Hillary media therefore created a Frankenstein monster–an imaginary Donald Trump who secretly wants to make America white again."

I agree with this too. But on the flip side, plenty of "conservative" talking heads created an imaginary Hillary Frankenstein who was supposedly simultaneously the most evil, corrupt person to ever run for politics and also the head of some vast political brain trust that could make anything happen that they wanted to. I said on several occasions that if Hillary was the Machiavellian genius that her detractors made her out to be, I not only would've voted for her, I would have been excited to have someone with that level of genius, cunning and power to lead the country. Sadly, but not surprisingly to me, she's just another semi-intelligent career politician who is pretty politically unremarkable in every sense. She's no more "corrupt" or venal or sneaky or intelligent than the average, run of the mill politician at every level. She just had more name recognition. If she and her team had been the corrupt geniuses that her detractors claimed she was, they would've found a way to win the election. But she's not and they're not. Never were...

Politics is the same as being a sports fan now. Trump and Clinton may as well be K or Roy or Cal. Or maybe Clinton is Coach Doh. Reality doesnt really matter anymore, its all about spewing propaganda and talking points for your team. Sure there are legions of rational folks, just like there are legions fans who just watch the games for fun and have small talk about the team in the real world and are oblivious to the fact that everybody on the internet wants to fire the coach or talk trash to their rival, but increasingly the media pays its bills by playing up the nutjobs because watching nutjobs is more interesting than what political talk used to be which was a only a meagre step on the boredom scale above watching it all actually happen live on CSPAN.

Real question. Do you guys here (which I view as my rest stop for middle America "white standardness"...and I don't mean that as a perjorative) understand why people would suspect (if not outright view) Donald Trump as a racist, sexist, xenophobic strong man? Or do you think it was all an attempt to smear him by the media?

I remember back when I was just out of college, I'd go visit friends at UT in Austin, and we'd get drunk and watch the access channel and see Alex Jones and his infowars bullshit and we'd laugh at that shit. Everybody in those rooms voted for George Bush, but we all thought that this guy was the most ridiculous fucking crazy nutjob. Fast forward ten years and I see that guy being linked to on message boards and even on TV on what are supposed to be real news channels. Its fucking insane, and of course the implication given by that guy being on the news as an "expert commentator" gives a two fold impression. It tells one side who might be inclined to slightly agree with his crazy shit that this is indeed someone who the news channel thinks is worth listening to, and to the other side it's an indication, that "holy shit, this is how the other side thinks! Their guy is on the news saying this nutso stuff!" and the news channel just rakes in the ratings off that garbage and people generate clicks and ad revenue based off of it. It's all just a so fucking phony now that you can't even see straight about whats really going on with either side of the aisle now.

I don't understand why he's racist because he wants to put Americans first by removing people who aren't Americans. As far as I know he hasn't specifically said anything against African Americans. He hasn't presented any policy or approach that would go against anyone that is an American (other than an anchor baby I guess). As I've said before, removing illegal aliens doesn't help people like me, middle class America - it helps most the unskilled youth who are unemployed or underemployed. Specifically young Latinos and African Americans. When Hillary Clinton or someone else says we need illegal immigrants because they do the jobs Americans won't do - who is being racist?

So Xenophobic? Sure - and if you're pushing nationalism and an anti-globalism stance, then I think that's unavoidable.

Misogynist? I don't know - he did get close to or over 50% of women voters so I think most of them understand he just a man who likes pussy but he has surrounded himself with successful women and there are not shortage of women who represent him.

I heard Trevor Noah and John Oliver both jumping all over David Duke supporting Trump. I suspect the dude that runs the Bunny Ranch wanted Trump to win. Trump can't control who supports him, especially in the world of the internet and 24 hour news coverage. Does Trump support the KKK? does anyone really believe that? Does Trump support legalized prostitution.? Yet that's the narrative. The LBGT community is all over Trump yet he mentioned his support for them in his speech at the RNC. You think that played well with that Audience? yet he felt it was important enough to mention them in his acceptance speech.

So yea in sense I think the media has driven a narrative that unfairly categorizes Trump.

In 2000, Trump considered running for the Reform Party presidential nomination but did not run because he said he did not want to be associated with Pat Buchanan, who had left the Republican Party to seek the Reform Party nomination, and David Duke, who supported Buchanan. Trump at the time called Duke “a bigot, a racist, a problem.”

hedge wrote:Well, Jeb Bush was certainly wrong when he told Trump he wouldn't be able to insult his way to the presidency...

Is it an insult when it's the truth?

Bklyn wrote:Real question. Do you guys here (which I view as my rest stop for middle America "white standardness"...and I don't mean that as a perjorative) understand why people would suspect (if not outright view) Donald Trump as a racist, sexist, xenophobic strong man? Or do you think it was all an attempt to smear him by the media?

I think it's pretty overblown, like everything else concerning Trump or Clinton in this campaign. Just like I've been saying to eCat, I don't think Hillary is anything close to the most evil, corrupt and venal politician to ever run for high office, but there is certainly evidence out there that has made it easy for those who don't like her to represent her as such. Same with Trump and the things you mention. I'm not saying he's Gandhi, but I doubt he's anymore racist, sexist, etc., than the average guy out there. To which I'm sure plenty of people would reply "well, that's pretty bad", and maybe that's true, but I would actually say Trump is less racist, sexist, etc., than the average guy out there, his "grab em by the pussy" bravado notwithstanding. I think he's been in a position to work with all sorts of people much more than the average person has been and I think he values competence and effectiveness far more than most. As far as his sexism, I really think he's more of a dolt who has an adolescent penchant for braggadocio than an actual disdain or disrespect of women in general, but saying that, who can really say what's in anyone's heart? My sense, though, is he is very far from some kind of Archie Bunker when it comes to racism and sexism...

The capitalistic reality is that most if not all of those jobs just are not coming back and in fact more are probably going to be lost. The irony is that a lot of people seem to think that the government can fix this, which you would think would play right into the dems hands, but somehow it's the repubs who benefited from this "Big Government, please save us" sentiment...

It's hard to believe that people are stupid enough to think that these kind of labor intensive manufacturing jobs are coming back (but we have Trump now so I guess any level of stupidity should be believed). Shit, I just reviewed an article my team wrote about how robotics are replacing human labor in China where labor costs a fraction of what it does here. A huge portion of the jobs that exist now are going to disappear before too long and there is zero chance that anyone is going to be able to stop it.

All they want is someone to acknowledge that they are struggling instead of hearing about how well people who need subsidies or dream about becoming a citizen are doing.

Does a steel worker in Pennsylvania think his factory that once employed 12,000 but now has less than 800 is going to see that factory come back? I doubt even the most optimistic believe that. But they sure as shit don't want a candidate coming up there and telling them "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”

also, not that I take is seriously but I love all the Calexit talk.

Its tin foil hat time when Alaska or Texas talks about it but Trump wins and the West Coast wants out.

Study what happens to states that want out of the Union and get back to me when you do

Shit, most of the country hates California now anyways. It wouldn't take a lot to draw down on them.

California, here I come...

eCat wrote:All they want is someone to acknowledge that they are struggling instead of hearing about how well people who need subsidies or dream about becoming a citizen are doing.

Does a steel worker in Pennsylvania think his factory that once employed 12,000 but now has less than 800 is going to see that factory come back? I doubt even the most optimistic believe that. But they sure as shit don't want a candidate coming up there and telling them "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”

So, they want someone who will lie to them?

Cletus wrote:

eCat wrote:All they want is someone to acknowledge that they are struggling instead of hearing about how well people who need subsidies or dream about becoming a citizen are doing.

Does a steel worker in Pennsylvania think his factory that once employed 12,000 but now has less than 800 is going to see that factory come back? I doubt even the most optimistic believe that. But they sure as shit don't want a candidate coming up there and telling them "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business”

So, they want someone who will lie to them?

we're talking politics. Lying to them is a given. Obama ignored the middle class. Hillary didn't have a message for them. Trump did. Its that simple. Why would they vote for Hillary even if they think Trump can't deliver?

"we're talking politics. Lying to them is a given."

I don't understand how you're so understanding of this basic truth, but yet hold Hillary's feet to the fire for doing what every other politician does in terms of using their office for personal gain, or, at the very least, for rewarding their supporters and cronies, which Trump surely will do, most likely in spades. Seems like a double standard...

hedge wrote:"we're talking politics. Lying to them is a given."

I don't understand how you're so understanding of this basic truth, but yet hold Hillary's feet to the fire for doing what every other politician does in terms of using their office for personal gain, or, at the very least, for rewarding their supporters and cronies, which Trump surely will do, most likely in spades. Seems like a double standard...

Telling an audience you're going to bring back jobs is a world of difference than using the state department as a pay to play scheme to get rich(er).

Or go out and brag that you will put coal miners out of business. Probably didn't go over to well with folks in Southeast Ohio.

call it what you want but this is/was a bloomberg headline

Ford Moving Pickup Production to Ohio Plant From Mexico

Ford Motor Co., which plans to cease making the Econoline van later this year, will revive the Ohio factory where the vehicle is made by investing $168 million to move pickup production there from Mexico early in 2015.

Production of Ford’s commercial F-650 and F-750 medium-duty pickups will move from a plant in Escobedo, Mexico, to Avon Lake, Ohio.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... -van-plant

That's gotta kick Kasich right in the balls

Kasich has a plan. He isn't out of this yet!

its an older article, but it notes though that jobs can come back.