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Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:03 pm
by innocentbystander
AlabamAlum wrote:Exactly. It would be because we gave it value. Like all the other currencies out there. It's rare enough that the market wouldn't be flooded or its value devalued.
You said it best, its rare. Scarce. Even if someone (somewhere) found another 50 tones of gold somewhere on the planet, gold would still be scarce and rare and extremely valuable. We give it value (not a "central authority.") Orcs in my game of D&D do not hoard gold because the central government of Mordor give it value.

Johnny...

(shaking head, can't even believe I have to say this)

...the planet will NOT be running out of corn. Ever. Corn is TRULY infinate. The sun our Earth revolves around will SuperNova before we run out of corn. Even Will Smith in I Am Legend could find a patch of desolate grass in the middle of Vampire ridden Manhattan (not to mention the Manhattan prisoners in Kurt Russel's Escape From New York) to grow corn (specifically because 97% of the nutrients that corn needs to grow are CO2 molecules being pulled directly out of the atmopsphere: C6H12O6 + 6O2 = 6CO2 + 6H2O style, read Omnivore's Dillema.) No person on this planet will ever have any GOLD while at the same time (even in the worst of Apocolypse) be starving enough to trade 22 ounces of it for 4 ears of corn.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:17 pm
by innocentbystander
bluetick wrote:If the shit truly hits the fan and there is no central authority anywhere...the most precious metals will surely be cold steel and lead (copper jacket optional).
That could be true blood sucking tick, but I'll defer to Stephen King and his greatest novel (his dark rendition of Christianity) as to what would be of the MOST value when the shit hits the fan:
Glen Bateman BA, MA, MFA wrote:Technological know-how will be the absolute form of economic value to barter with in this post flu world.
The smartest, most logical thinker, will thrive and survive. Their mad skilz could be worth more than anything (remember "the little man" or half of "Master-Blaster" in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome?) Bardertown needed him (his skills) working in the pig shit to make sure the methane kept flowing.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:33 pm
by Professor Tiger
You cannot pay me to guard your vast wealth with my life if I have the ability to just take it from you. If there is no system of justice to pursue and prosecute me, I (or my gang) will just take everything you have. Even if you already have a security team in place, what's to stop them from colluding to kill you and split your wealth amongst themselves? It's happened countless times - Emperors & Kings with standing armies have been usurped by their palace guards...
Like this?

[youtube]y1aeEbpw6ik[/youtube]

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:37 pm
by Professor Tiger
I almost forgot the salient question in any discussion of a hypothetical post-apocalyptic world:

Zombies or no zombies?

That will dramatically affect all the calculations.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:15 pm
by hedge
"
You said it best, its rare. Scarce. Even if someone (somewhere) found another 50 tones of gold somewhere on the planet, gold would still be scarce and rare and extremely valuable."

Again, by that metric, moon rocks would be far more valuable than gold...

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:16 pm
by hedge
Actually, by that metric (rarity), an intelligent post from you would be the most valuable thing in the world. Indeed, priceless...

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:49 pm
by AlabamAlum
Moon rocks are too scarce - Not enough substance to trade with. Otherwise they would be fine.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:06 pm
by Johnette's Daddy
IB - corn was used for illustrative purposes. I know that when God created the earth, he probably had to scrape corn away to get it to fit (just kidding).

In any event, the point is that the value of gold is completely psychological and belief based. At various and sundry times in the past 100-200 years, silver, aluminum and other metals were valued much more highly than gold. Right now, platinum is trading 20%-30% higher than gold. When the Spanish first started operating mines in the New World, they would discard platinum that they discovered while mining gold.

The whole reason paper currency has worked for the last couple hundred years is that people believe in the institution that backs it. Same thing for gold.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:15 pm
by AlabamAlum
Silver has been valued much more highly than gold in the last 100-200 years?

Anyway, silver would work. And it beats trying to trade with the giant stone coins of Micronesia. But anything rare would work.

Image

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:46 pm
by Jungle Rat
What exactly is a tone of gold worth?

From A Survivalist Site:

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:52 pm
by Johnette's Daddy
What May Be Worth More Than Gold In An Emergency

http://www.offthegridnews.com/2013/07/0 ... emergency/

The pitchmen filling the TV airwaves with claims that gold is vital to financial independence and survival are leaving out an important piece of the story. Recent history demonstrates that it is entirely possible for any precious metal, including gold, to lose all or most of its value.

Gold is not immune to the market as the TV pitchmen keep claiming. In fact, it is possible for gold to sink to a very low value and stay at that low price for long periods of time. That’s exactly what happened between 1980 and 2004. The thirty-year gold chart below shows what the markets can do to precious metals.

Gold, as you can see, rose to its highest price in 1980 at around $680 an ounce; it did not return to that price again until 2005, around 25 years later. Instead of retaining value, gold actually dramatically lost more than half of its value by 1984 and dropped to even lower prices between 1998 and 2002.

This ugly picture gets worse when you figure in the rate of inflation over that time. The combined rate of inflation for the years between 1980 and 2001 was 114.8%. That means gold was worth even less because the price reported in 2001 when gold prices hit their lowest was calculated in 2001 dollars. The price of gold in 2001 when it was around $300 an ounce was $139.66 in 1980 dollars. Those who don’t believe me should take a look at the inflation calculator.

The math and recent history demonstrate that gold is not a protection against inflation or other market forces. In 2000, a person that put $1,000 in paper money under the mattress in 1980 would have been better off than somebody who had purchased $1,000 in gold coins in 1980.

Not a Good Strategy for Economic Survival

Placing all or a large portion of your family’s funds in gold or other precious metals is not a good strategy for economic survival. These metals don’t protect funds from market forces, and they don’t provide liquidity. Liquidity is the most important thing when it comes to a financial asset; a liquid asset is one you can take out and spend or move quickly.

Other precious metals are actually more vulnerable to the market than gold. Silver, for example, remained at a price of around $9 an ounce between 1985 and 2003. That means silver lost value during that period because of inflation. Platinum’s price fell by nearly $1,400 an ounce during the Great Financial Meltdown of 2008. It hasn’t recovered that price since.

So a family that expects to be immune from market forces because it owns gold will be sadly mistaken. That family will be hurt just as badly by economic downturns as its neighbors that own stocks and bonds.

Now, many of you are probably saying, okay, so gold and silver are a lousy investment, but shouldn’t I keep a small stash of gold or silver coins for an emergency? The answer is no because there are other cheaper items that can serve as a substitute for money in an emergency. These items are trade goods that can be sold or bartered in an emergency.

Alternatives to Gold

If things get really bad and people resort to barter, there are a lot of things that will be worth more than gold or gold coins. You can purchase most of those items fairly cheaply right now and store some of them indefinitely. Generally, items that people can use will be worth more in a non-money situation.

Here are some items that you can purchase cheaply, which might be worth more than gold in a true emergency:
•Cigarettes and tobacco. Smokers have to have their fix no matter what, and they will pay for it. Cigarettes actually served as currency in Europe right after World War II when the economy had collapsed. Cigarettes are small, and they are easy to stash.
•Wine and liquor. A good wine cellar or a few cases of good Scotch in the basement might be a better investment. If civilization survives, you can drink it. If it collapses, well, people will still want to drink, and they’ll pay or trade for it.
•Seeds, particularly non-GMO and non-hybrid vegetable seeds. People will need to eat and feed their families. Seeds might be one of the most valuable commodities, especially if people experience a few months of hunger or bare supermarket shelves. Right now you can order large amounts of non-GMO and non-hybrid heirloom seeds online for a fairly low price.
•Guns and ammunition. Most people won’t stock up on these until it’s too late. If recent mass shootings cause restrictions on the amount of ammunition that can be sold, it might become difficult to get bullets at some point. Then ammunition, particularly hunting ammo, will be worth a lot.
•Basic hand tools, such as knives, hammers, drills, shovels, screwdrivers, rakes, axes, and saws
•Chainsaws and chainsaw chains
•Firewood. Something you might store up anyway.
•Coal and charcoal for heat and cooking
•Propane, particularly in bottles for barbecues. It might be the only way some people can cook.
•Candles
•Batteries of all shapes and sizes
•Sterno (canned heat)
•Gasoline and diesel fuel
•Generators and parts for generators
•Entertainment on tapes or discs in case the Internet and broadcasting go down. CDs, DVDs, LPS, and VHS tapes containing popular movies, songs, TV shows, and video games might be worth their weight in gold, especially if people have generators and no TV or Internet.
•Books, magazines, and comic books. People will still need something to do. You can buy old paperbacks at thrift stores for less than a dollar a piece.
•Textbooks, how to books, and instruction manuals. A copy of a basic gardening book might be worth $100 or more if the supermarket shelves are bare.
•Food, particularly preserved food. People will need to eat, and they are willing to pay for the privilege.
•Bicycles and bicycle parts. If there is no gasoline, people will still need to get around, and most people won’t be using horses. You can buy old bicycles for less than $20 at thrift stores. Hint: When people need transportation, basic commuter bicycles will outsell mountain bikes or ten speeds. Bicycle carts will be particularly valuable.
•Personal hygiene items, soap, deodorant, razors, shaving cream, shampoo, etc. This stuff has a long shelf life, and people will still want to be clean after the collapse.
•Perfumes and colognes because people will want to smell good.
•Bleach, which can be used to disinfect water
•Bottled water
•Soda pop, candy, and snack foods because people will still want junk food
•Fishing poles and fishing tackle
•Disposable diapers
•Toys

Finally, the best assets you and your family can have are skills that people will pay for. The ability to grow a garden, gather greens from the forest, hunt, fish, repair an engine, cut firewood, repair a gun, fire a gun, repair a bicycle, bake bread, and cook meals from scratch will be worth more than gold. Skills are something that cannot be stolen from you. You can make additional money teaching those skills to those who didn’t bother to learn before the emergency.

A Better Economic Survival Strategy

A better basic strategy will be to keep the family funds in savings accounts, CDs, money markets, and other bank accounts. The bank accounts are FDIC (CDIC in Canada) insured, which means the federal government will replace the money if the bank collapses. More importantly, it is possible to get cash out of the accounts quickly in an emergency.

Almost all banks will give you a debit card for money markets, CDs, and savings accounts. That means you can use the card to make purchases in an emergency or to simply get cash from an ATM. This provides flexibility because it gives a family ready money that it can use to pay bills or cover emergency expenses as well as the ability to pull the funds out quickly.

You won’t be able to pay the phone bill or buy groceries from Costco with gold coins. You will be able to pay the phone bill and make purchases at Costco with a debit card.

Something to remember is that you can use the debit card or the cash to buy up items you can barter quickly in an emergency. You can also slowly build up a stash of “trade goods” over the years. If you do horde such goods, make sure that you buy stuff that has a long shelf life and that you will use or sell quickly in the near future. A perfect example of this is wine, whiskey, and bulk foods.

Stockpiling trade items is a good strategy because those items are not worth that much right now. Nobody’s going to break into your home to steal twenty boxes of disposable diapers or a case of fishing line. They will break in to snatch gold, which is very valuable right now.

Keeping most of your money in cash in insured bank accounts and accumulating a stash of trade goods is a better survival strategy than owning gold. It will give you the flexibility to survive financial crises and the ability to thrive after a large scale collapse.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:55 pm
by Professor Tiger
I agree with most of that article, but I don't think anybody will have access to any of their money using an ATM or debit card. That will be the first thing to go. Just ask the Cypriots.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:39 am
by hedge
I was fixin to say, that article was spot on until the last few paragraphs, and then it started reading like an advertisement from the FDIC touting the safety of banks (while still saying "but buy all the wine and liquor you want, just use an ATM card to do it")...

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:38 am
by Dr. Strangelove
From what I've read, silver is actually more scarce than gold now. All the easily mined silver in the world is pretty much done. Whereas there's plenty of accessible gold left. Yet gold remains higher in value. It's not scarcity or usefulness that drives up its price; it's aesthetic.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:52 am
by AlabamAlum
The non-corrosive property of gold makes it an excellent conductor. In post-apocalyptic America, I will want my cellphone battery connectors made of NOTHING but gold.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:20 am
by hedge
Gold certainly does have some use value as a conductor, but it is hardly commensurate with its current "value", which is much more of a function of its historical usage as currency. And that history also lends it a somewhat mythical component as well, which also adds to its "value" in current monetary terms. Finally, women value it as a totem of their control over men in the form of jewelry, but in a post-apocalyptic world, men will probably not be nearly as influenced by the vanity of women as they are in a more stable social setting. Indeed, women themselves will probably be used for barter and will be much more highly valued than gold...

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:42 pm
by 10ac

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:38 pm
by sardis
Farmland, water source, and the arsenal to protect them.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:09 pm
by Professor Tiger
Check, check and check here.

I would add to the above list:
- The means to ensure the water from your source is always potable.
- The knowledge to preserve the food after you grow/hunt/catch it.
- First aid kit with basic medical supplies and EMT-level knowledge.
- A sat phone. Cell phones probably won't work.

Re: Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:27 pm
by sardis
History revisionists at work.

http://thecollegefix.mobify.me/post/15283/