Ostensibly Hoops

[Bluecat]

I have not chimed in on the UNC AF-AM scandal, and won't after this. Mainly because I've tried to remain non-hypocritical my entire life and, you know, people in glass houses should not throw stones. As someone who lived through SI's Kentucky Shame cover, I think my silence should speak for itself. However, I ask you to do ONE simple thing in full honesty:

IF this was UK that committed these transgressions, would you still consider it an "indictment" on the system as a whole or would you be jumping on the UK administration with both feet claiming it was a corrupt institution that deserves the death penalty?

(That question is directed at all of TGP, not just UNC fans.)

[sardis]

Even if you offered these kids a sports degree, you would still have to cheat because they are really THAT dumb.

The NBA should just go ahead and draft these kids out of high school just like baseball and hockey and beef up their development league to 30 teams.

[hedge]

Blue, I think clearly school allegiance plays a role in how the average fan (to say nothing of the rabid fan) would look at a situation like this. Clearly it is NCState fans that are pushing this the hardest, solely b/c they hate Carolina. A few talking heads here and there are going to puff up and wax eloquent about all the usual boilerplate "issues", but I suspect the casual fan of most other schools would shrug and figure it goes on everywhere. We're in a unique position in here to have developed friendships and sasships over the years, so it just so happens that UK fans and Carolina fans have crossed swords enough in here to have an added interest in the Carolina scandal. But I remember when one of your point guards was accused getting help in high school (or some shit), something like he barely passed Algebra 1 and then the next semester made an A in calculus (or some shit like that) and also that he wasn't even going to classes at UK, yeah, I took interest in it b/c of our long time in here. But I didn't think anything would come of it, and it didn't, and it didn't bother me that it didn't. Not to say I wouldn't have enjoyed the schaudenfreude if something had come of it, but I it never came to that. If it had been a player at almost any other school, I doubt I would've made much note of it at all...

As Stu said, Carolina has brought alot of this on themselves. I'm not talking about the transgressions, which is obvious that we brought that on ourselves by letting an already loose system get too loose, I'm talking about (again, as Stu said and I've said myself before), many Carolina fans have bought into the "right way" stuff that is always being preached by Carolina and got too smug in the process. Lost any sense of reality. But I do think that Dean Smith tried to run things like that back in the day and I think it was easier back then, before college hoops got so big. Plus, it's easier to monitor a team of 14 players, 4 or 5 of whom are probably pretty good students anyway. I never had any illusions about football, either at Carolina or elsewhere. Too many kids, too much money. I think the NCAA is wary about making UNC a scapegoat for this kind of thing, b/c if they set a precedent, they know they are going to have to follow it at any school that ever gets "caught" again with slack classes and whatnot, in basketball and football. And I doubt they want people digging up papers like that one Crotch posted earlier, b/c I feel pretty sure there are thousands and thousands of similar evidences of the stellar writing abilities of college athletes to be found at almost every D1 school. I doubt they want that kind of headache or embarrassment...

[Bluecat]

well reasoned hedge.

I also think the NCAA is running scared right now - with the impending unionization of NCAA athletes and the threat of major conferences (i.e., SEC, assorted BIGs, etc.) saying there isn't much to stop them from breaking away from the governing body, I think they're terrified to even go near Pandora's Box, let alone think of opening it.

[goldenbear]

7 players had AFA degrees they did not all sign up for now show classes.

That paper on Yahoo as not name blacked out and his pure white nothing that looks 10 years old.

[goldenbear]

I guarentee Sean May and Ray Felton can read

McCants went to New Hampton which was originally set up as Special ed school for athletes I bet he had and IEP and was supposed to get services.

[goldenbear]

rat my name on cnnsi was goldenbear I think I will try and find it.

[eCat]

I have to admit, when Cal starts talking about our graduation rates, I really wonder if these kids are getting real degrees or just some bullshit degree designed to get a kid thru the system.

But even at that - we've always known there are bunny classes for athletes but the implied rule was you don't just *give* it to them - and this is clearly what has happened at UNC. There is no debate or argument about this - people who were doing it, kids in the classes - have both testified that there were no show classes. To make things worse, UNC's defense is "hey, they were gimme classes but we opened it up to everyone, not just the athletes" - as if that is supposed to mean some level of integrity on their part.

As much as I hate to think it, I'm sure UK is admitting kids that can't function above a middle school level, but I'd like to think - and yes I do believe - that UK is serious about getting these kids the help they need for them to take and pass these classes based on their own effort.

I know that people were reporting that Julius Randle was in his 8am class the next day after an overtime game in Arkansas - which is actually beyond what I'd expect from an athlete. We paid a steep price for our arrogance - and we've implemented a system - starting with Sandy Bell being dedicated to following thru on all student athlete issues -that operates often to the detriment of our recruiting and programs.

So people can take shots at UK and talk about how everyone is doing it, but UK is probably the most transparent program out there because we're constantly fighting the assumption of guilt.

[eCat]

7 players had AFA degrees they did not all sign up for now show classes.

That paper on Yahoo as not name blacked out and his pure white nothing that looks 10 years old.

based on the real sports segment - they didn't sign up for anything - they were assigned the classes they were to take at the beginning of the year. And I don't see how anyone can defend any actions related to the AFAM degree.

[goldenbear]

I found old articles but all links to the old board are gone

[Saint]

From a fan standpoint, I would be more than happy to taunt UK over something like this. Just the hint of transgression is often enough to put on the fan shoes and laugh at the other guy.

But in reality, I'd feel like there would have to be a lot more to this story for me to understand what it is. Like I said, I'm having a hard time trying to decide where the truth is because we haven't gotten much of a story from UNC at all and the whistleblowers aren't exactly listing specifics. Trust me, I've gotten, through 9 years of covering sports, from being a fan. I just don't think we're getting anything close to the truth from anyone and I realize that for the non-UNC folks, we've gotten more than enough to satisfy their grudges. And that's fine. UNC has not lived up to its own standards and deserves the mockery it's getting. But I think there's so much more to this story for anyone to make judgement other than that.

I'm not just saying that "everybody does it" as an excuse for UNC not living up to its self-created reputation but it does seem that everybody does do it considering what I've read of the transgressions.

I'd like to see the whistleblowers point to specific student-athletes and how they benefited from academic fraud instead of just making claims that a rounded-off percentage of UNC athletes read at a certain grade level. Then I'd like to see the results of their research from other schools because this whole thing is lacking context. The data Willingham released a few months ago only had information on UNC and a handful of other schools and that's not enough information to determine if what has been going on at UNC is bad or is really bad because no other schools are doing that.

[goldenbear]

I am not defending anything but until I see real evidence of Sean May reading at a 4th grade level or a picture Sean May with smoking a joint when he was supposedly taking a test in AFA class I am not believing a thing from ESPN or HBO or any national media. They are all terrible at their jobs and they convict in the court of public opinion and I dont feed into it.

[Saint]

I know that people were reporting that Julius Randle was in his 8am class the next day after an overtime game in Arkansas - which is actually beyond what I'd expect from an athlete. We paid a steep price for our arrogance - and we've implemented a system - starting with Sandy Bell being dedicated to following thru on all student athlete issues -that operates often to the detriment of our recruiting and programs.

So people can take shots at UK and talk about how everyone is doing it, but UK is probably the most transparent program out there because we're constantly fighting the assumption of guilt.

This is where UNC is heading, regardless of whether they ever get hit with any sanctions. I wonder if the last chancellor left because he started kicking around some dirt and realized there was a pile of shit under it.

[Saint]

But even at that - we've always known there are bunny classes for athletes but the implied rule was you don't just *give* it to them - and this is clearly what has happened at UNC. There is no debate or argument about this - people who were doing it, kids in the classes - have both testified that there were no show classes. To make things worse, UNC's defense is "hey, they were gimme classes but we opened it up to everyone, not just the athletes" - as if that is supposed to mean some level of integrity on their part.

Actually, I think UNC's defense on that so far is the rogue professor, then added that the no-show classes weren't just for athletes.

[eCat]

I am not defending anything but until I see real evidence of Sean May reading at a 4th grade level or a picture Sean May with smoking a joint when he was supposedly taking a test in AFA class I am not believing a thing from ESPN or HBO or any national media. They are all terrible at their jobs and they convict in the court of public opinion and I dont feed into it.

So far as I know, the only athlete named was Julius Peppers and the other football player that left (can't remember his name). Not sure why Sean May is your focal point but I find Willingham very credible in talking about specific instances with a student.

UNC takes exception to her overall data, but I doubt they have much to say when she mentions specifics. Due to privacy issues, Willingham can't name players - at least publicly.

[Jungle Rat]

http://csnbbs.com/archive/index.php?thread-55124-1.html

[sardis]

[goldenbear]

I am not defending anything but until I see real evidence of Sean May reading at a 4th grade level or a picture Sean May with smoking a joint when he was supposedly taking a test in AFA class I am not believing a thing from ESPN or HBO or any national media. They are all terrible at their jobs and they convict in the court of public opinion and I dont feed into it.

So far as I know, the only athlete named was Julius Peppers and the other football player that left (can't remember his name). Not sure why Sean May is your focal point but I find Willingham very credible in talking about specific instances with a student.

UNC takes exception to her overall data, but I doubt they have much to say when she mentions specifics. Due to privacy issues, Willingham can't name players - at least publicly.

really her data is terrible, there was not real test she did based on 10-15 minutes snipts and Peppers is just a rumor.

The May thing was an example anyone of the 05 team.

[goldenbear]

Disgusting that Iowa St lost to UConn, UConn is not a very good team at all. Makes ROy job last week even worse man I cant stand him, it is cut down the nets or busts for him next year. Losing to a team that was dominated by a bad UConn team

[Bluecat]

https://www.google.com/search?q=Julius+ ... channel=sb

I think you may need to look up the meaning of the word rumor...