The Goat Pen

I didn't see any evidence that she lied. What she did was represent her client to the best of her ability. Presented a theory of the case that was in support of her client, went after the credibility of the accuser (as she was supposed to do) and question the evidence against her client. That is not lying and it is representing your client. It's called being a lawyer. Not a big fan of tobacco companies, but I had to work for them at the law firm in a lawsuit. (We won that particular lawsuit).

As I tell my students, if you can't represent someone to the best of your abilities, even someone you dislike, choose another profession.

Owlman wrote:I didn't see any evidence that she lied. What she did was represent her client to the best of her ability. Presented a theory of the case that was in support of her client, went after the credibility of the accuser (as she was supposed to do) and question the evidence against her client. That is not lying and it is representing your client. It's called being a lawyer. Not a big fan of tobacco companies, but I had to work for them at the law firm in a lawsuit. (We won that particular lawsuit).

As I tell my students, if you can't represent someone to the best of your abilities, even someone you dislike, choose another profession.

she is a horrible person

nothing more to say in defense of it.

and both Obama's and Clinton's refusal to address what happened in Orlando as Islamic terrorism is them both playing politics with the safety of all Americans.

this shit has to stop. I am honestly at a point where I don't understand how anyone can stand with these two anymore for the greater good of America - and that isn't hyperbole on my part

50 people are dead at the hands of someone professing Isis support and they want to talk gun control. Charlie Hebdo and the Brussels attack should tell anyone that gun control is not the solution.

I also want Obama to tell me again how the greatest threat to our nation is climate change.

I (kinda) hear you...but what does saying "Islamic terrorism" change? That argument exists for why he should not shy from saying it...but also should make one question why it even matters if it's said. There are still boots on the ground in parts of Iraq and Syria. We still drone attack ISIS (and Taliban) hierarchy. Everyone is well aware of the motivations of the Omar Mateens, Nidal Hassans, Tashfin Maliks, Syed Rizwans and even the Dylan Roofs of the country. I don't get the energy on either side to keep focusing on the words used.

Also, climate change is a huge threat to global stability. Is it the greatest threat? I don't know. In the long term, I would put it incredibly near the top of the list. In the near term, it slides down, a bit.

Again, either way, just like in our individual lives, having multiple concerns and addressing them concurrently is the order of operations. Whichever claims the #1 seed matters little to me. I am more interested in what is actually being done...and is what is being done sufficient to address it, knowing that there are trade-offs we need to balance out in solving the problems. That's the case whether we are talking terrorism or the carbon cycle.

my problem is that this political correctness in an effort to avoid painting muslims with a broad brush has the politicians and media putting the focus on a red herring

gun control isn't going to stop the efforts of domestic and foreign terrorists from attempting to get their 15 minutes in killing Americans. Will they be less successful making guns harder to come by? I have no idea but it doesn't change they get up in the morning thinking of ways to kill innocent people.

Its not a coincidence - at least from a motivation standpoint. And we need to be honest about this and stop all this one lets teach the world to sing living in a coke commercial horseshit.

Until we say this is a muslim issue, then we will not have the ability to attack it as a Muslim issue. At what point does these stop becoming isolated attacks?

I don't see the rhetoric impacting the US' approach to terrorism and most Democratic lawmakers' desire to curb gun rights. I think it's just words. I don't think those words matter, in the grand scheme of things. Billions of dollars have been funneled into intelligence to combat domestic terrorism and foreign terrorism. I'm sure we've killed some Syrians/Iraqis/Afghans today in the middle east. I'm sure we'll kill some more tomorrow and the next day. There are constantly bills introduced on the federal and local level slugging it out on gun rights. None of these truths will change by saying "Radical Islamic Terrorism." Feels like wasted energy, personally.

Bklyn wrote:I don't see the rhetoric impacting the US' approach to terrorism and most Democratic lawmakers' desire to curb gun rights. I think it's just words. I don't think those words matter, in the grand scheme of things. Billions of dollars have been funneled into intelligence to combat domestic terrorism and foreign terrorism. I'm sure we've killed some Syrians/Iraqis/Afghans today in the middle east. I'm sure we'll kill some more tomorrow and the next day. There are constantly bills introduced on the federal and local level slugging it out on gun rights. None of these truths will change by saying "Radical Islamic Terrorism." Feels like wasted energy, personally.

what did we do about them within our borders? All this bluster about gun control and what not is just the buffer to prevent us from getting to the real problem.

That issue is that many, many Muslims are incompatible with the modern western world.

eCat wrote:what did we do about them within our borders?

What did we do? Like monitor their social media? Like investigate them from a distance and also question them directly? We did...and probably other shit that I have no idea about. I do know this Omar Mateen cat was investigated by the FBI. He had been on their watch list for years. I don't know when their last check-in with him was, but when they had him on their RADAR he had not broken any laws, so there was not much they could do.

Talk to any big city law enforcement official and they will tell you the amount of federal dollars they receive dwarfs what they got 15 years ago. Talk to many small town officials and they will say the same. That does not even count the amount of web surveillance and transaction probing that occurs by federal authorities. It is the reason why that guy was arrested in Colorado years ago for purchasing some explosive material. The feds were there to pick him up the day he took possession of the material. There is plenty being done...regardless of what words politicians use to describe despicable acts committed against innocent citizens.

Call Dylan Roof a domestic terrorist or call him a deranged kid with mental issues, but put him in jail (and apparently they're gonna kill him). Now, would I like for him to be labeled a terrorist...or the Atlanta Olympic bomber who hid out in the mountains of North Carolina forever? Of course I would. Do I think much about it if the justice system works and they are put away forever? Noap.

Bklyn wrote:

eCat wrote:what did we do about them within our borders?

What did we do? Like monitor their social media? Like investigate them from a distance and also question them directly? We did...and probably other shit that I have no idea about. I do know this Omar Mateen cat was investigated by the FBI. He had been on their watch list for years. I don't know when their last check-in with him was, but when they had him on their RADAR he had not broken any laws, so there was not much they could do.

Talk to any big city law enforcement official and they will tell you the amount of federal dollars they receive dwarfs what they got 15 years ago. Talk to many small town officials and they will say the same. That does not even count the amount of web surveillance and transaction probing that occurs by federal authorities. It is the reason why that guy was arrested in Colorado years ago for purchasing some explosive material. The feds were there to pick him up the day he took possession of the material. There is plenty being done...regardless of what words politicians use to describe despicable acts committed against innocent citizens.

Call Dylan Roof a domestic terrorist or call him a deranged kid with mental issues, but put him in jail (and apparently they're gonna kill him). Now, would I like for him to be labeled a terrorist...or the Atlanta Olympic bomber who hid out in the mountains of North Carolina forever? Of course I would. Do I think much about it if the justice system works and they are put away forever? Noap.

I"m not talking about the justice system. I'm not talking about individuals. Its this kind of approach that will continue to see innocent Americans killed for not other fact than they are Americans.

What kind of approach? What is being not being DONE that should be done? You want a stronger Patriot Act? You want abolishment of FISA courts?

I'm not going full Ronald Reagan here (when the US Embassy in Beirut was bombed) and saying that killed Americans are just part of process. I'm saying that I don't care what words are being said, I'm caring about what things are being done. I don't know what the full list of options are, but I do know whatever process we employ I want certain basic freedoms in tact and I know that philosophy incorporates certain dangers to our populace. It's an uncomfortable balancing act, but one that we have always had to deal with as Americans.

not you but it seems the people that are so concerned with infringing on civil liberties are the same ones to talk about curbing the culture of violence by making it harder to own a gun - something that is constitutionally guaranteed.

How about we just not sell guns to Muslims? nope can't do it - that would be profiling so instead we're just not going to sell guns to anyone.

So will that stop Muslims from killing Americans on American soil?

nope.

As I said earlier, I believe its time for America to say Muslims are not compatible with modern western democracy. Its past time for Europe to say it.

The first step is to recognize that adding to their numbers here is a threat to American security. Its not a solution but its a start to stopping the radicalization that is occurring within our own border.

I'd say the next step is to come up with some kind of deterrent for associating with people on the FBI watch list as well as creating or supporting an environment conducive to inciting radicalization of islam.

Would you have said all that to Muhammad Ali?

if we were having a discussion about it I think I would

Christ!

It's just words.

....calm down.

They don't want to blame anyone who is not a white male protestant so they deflect blame away from the perpetrator and to an organization run by white male protestants.

None of that matters. The newspaper headlines don't matter. Vilifying the NRA doesn't matter. Even talking about it here, like that Daily News (a newspaper in a "tough on guns" city that would only be read nationally for its gossip section) headline will matter a single bit in Jackson, MS.

Some Liberals write a few paragraphs excoriating the NRA. The NRA fires (excuse the analogy) back at the "Mainstream Liberal Media" that the Left is trying to take their guns and end their 2A rights. Rinse and repeat.

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. We're not changing as a country anytime soon. If the Sandy Hook incident didn't change things, nothing will.

I've already wasted too much time typing on a topic that adds zero value to the real issue...which is what can legitimately be done to keep us more safe as a populace?

he doesn't represent all Muslims

he just represents all gun owners