The Goat Pen

I think that a good rule of thumb for this day and age is that if a tradition is 2000 years old and based on ignorance of a bunch of backwards goat herders, it's probably time to ditch it.

"Personally I prefer clergy with a Y chromosome"

I doubt the multitude of alter boys who have been raped over the centuries by those Y chromosome-possessing clergy would agree. But let's not talk about that, that's in the past (right, Prof?), let's just talk about all the good things the church has done. Yeah, that's the ticket...

Cletus wrote:I think that a good rule of thumb for this day and age is that if a tradition is 2000 years old and based on ignorance of a bunch of backwards goat herders, it's probably time to ditch it.

Great progress has been made in that direction with the church in general. Thank god...

hedge wrote:"Personally I prefer clergy with a Y chromosome"

I doubt the multitude of alter boys who have been raped over the centuries by those Y chromosome-possessing clergy would agree. But let's not talk about that, that's in the past (right, Prof?), let's just talk about all the good things the church has done. Yeah, that's the ticket...

That's where the "There are plenty of XY clergy who have no business wearing a collar, ... " comes in. Or I could have said "Personally I prefer clergy with a Y chromosome and are not sexual molesters" of which there have been more than a few.

But let's not talk about that, that's in the past (right, Prof?)

I think I've been pretty forthright about clergy sexual abuse of minors. It is disgusting, reprehensible, horrific, obscene, and any other harsh condemnation I can think of. And yes, it clearly happened recently, committed particularly (but certainly not exclusively) by clergy in the Catholic Church. And even worse, it was actively covered up by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, who were more concerned about their reputation of their church than the safety of their children. Priests who molest children belong in the lowest pit of hell in my opinion.

I trust that clarifies.

The Gray Ghost wrote:

hedge wrote:"Personally I prefer clergy with a Y chromosome"

I doubt the multitude of alter boys who have been raped over the centuries by those Y chromosome-possessing clergy would agree. But let's not talk about that, that's in the past (right, Prof?), let's just talk about all the good things the church has done. Yeah, that's the ticket...

That's where the "There are plenty of XY clergy who have no business wearing a collar, ... " comes in. Or I could have said "Personally I prefer clergy with a Y chromosome and are not sexual molesters" of which there have been more than a few.

My question was more why does the preacher having a penis matter at all?

Professor Tiger wrote:

But let's not talk about that, that's in the past (right, Prof?)

I think I've been pretty forthright about clergy sexual abuse of minors. It is disgusting, reprehensible, horrific, obscene, and any other harsh condemnation I can think of. And yes, it clearly happened recently, committed particularly (but certainly not exclusively) by clergy in the Catholic Church. And even worse, it was actively covered up by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church, who were more concerned about their reputation of their church than the safety of their children. Priests who molest children belong in the lowest pit of hell in my opinion.

I trust that clarifies.

People who stay in the church are every bit part of the problem and deserve to go to hell as well (if such a place were to exist).

"My question was more why does the preacher having a penis matter at all?"

Especially when they're not supposed to be using it at all...

If you hold the premise that there is no difference between genders except for the presence/absence of some body parts or a particular chomosome, then by all means the suitability of a person in any profession or societal role has no relation to the said physical differences.

On the other hand, if you do believe there are differences between the sexes, be they innate or cultural, then then these things could matter. For example in addition to having a penis, males in general have superior upper body muscular strength to females. So if I have a need for people with that kind of strength, I'm going to prefer males, with acknowledgement that on occasion there might be a female that possesses that trait and there will be some men who do not.

Or you can just take the "God Said It, I Believe It, That Settles It' approach.

You're being a bit elusive, GG. No doubt on upper body strength. If you had said "I prefer XY firefighters" I would understand. And I believe that there are differences between the sexes that aren't just physical, but I can't imagine a difference between a man and a woman that would give one sex over the other an advantage in "preaching" - which is what I asked you to explain to me.

So, what are the innate physical or cultural differences that make a man the preferered gender for clergy? Surely it isn't upper body strength.

The upper body strength makes it easier for them to immobilize alter boys while they are sodomizing them...

Alter boys?

Is that a new name for trans?

If being a clergyperson is just about "preaching", then not much difference. Women can study the Bible just as well as men can, make interpretations, express their beliefs, etc. It's more when you get to the tasks of being a spiritual leader or guide to a person or group of people that I personally think a man (in general) is better suited. Similar to how I looked more to my father for guidance on some matters and to my mother on others. As a member of a denomination that has had both sexes in the clergy for 40 years now, I've seen my share of both across the spectrum of roles and that's where I sit.

Ah but on to more important things - today is Ash Wednesday so the white shoes and seersucker get put away for 7 weeks.

I thought seersucker and white buck shoes are approved beginning Memorial Day (maybe earlier for Florida). I didn't think Ash Wednesday was involved in the calculations.

Maybe when the sexton sees his shadow in the Almy Ash Wednesday catalog, there are 7 more weeks of ordinary time?

I still have questions.

What quality of "being male" makes you better at the "spritual leader" gig?

Tradition. The same reason Alabama's football team wears red and white.

I'm sure they'd play just as well wearing a better color, like orange.

The crimson color we wear does not make us play better. We would generally kick ass in any color.

If the only reason is "well, we don't have a real reason. Started back when women were possessions and we never got around to changing it." --then fine. GG really seems to suggest more than that, he just hasn't articulated it yet.

And, honestly, I'm not looking to entrap or lampoon you. It was honest curiosity. There is enough in your respective mythologies to lampoon without going to a charge of sexism in selecting clergy.