The Goat Pen

Nobody complains about the scores of pardons that presidents typically grant the day before they leave office. Not exactly the same as an executive order like we're talking about here, but in a sense it is an executive order that overrides the entire judicial branch of government.

Also, I always thought most executive orders were along the lines of setting aside public land or declaring some piece of land as a national monument (or whatever) that was already being used for more or less that purpose, but the executive order just makes it official federally. Certainly Theodore Roosevelt did yeoman's work in that regard, but I recall Clinton making some scab land in Utah that probably had no other use into a national monument, and his enemies criticized it, on the grounds that nobody could go four-wheeling out there anymore or some such (although they of course didn't put it in those terms)...

there are two conflicting issues regarding the FBI's request of Apple

lets take the phone out of the equation for a moment and lets say the San Bernadino terrorists had an address book in a safe in their apartment.

The FBI serves a valid warrant to obtain that address book under the belief it links to other terrorists that aided them in their attack.

The FBI asks the safe company to assist in opening the safe to get the address book. Few people would have a problem with this scenario

The conflicting issue here is that no one trusts the FBI to know how to open that safe - and while that's a valid concern, it detracts from the issue of whether the FBI has a valid reason via warrant to access the address book.

While I'm a huge privacy advocate and fully support Snowden in receiving a pardon, I believe you have to be able to separate legitimate valid reasons for the FBI or whoever to access data. I believe this is a valid reason.

If Apple chooses to not comply, well so be it , I think they'll need to be prepared to face some kind of obstruction charge - and at the same time, if Apple were to provide access (I still don't understand why the FBI has to have the encryption key - why not just bring the phone to Apple with the warrant and let their IT honks hack it?) to the FBI, then the FBI should absolutely face criminal charges if they abuse that power down the road.

To me there is no difference in a digital address book that is stored on a SIM card on a phone and a hard copy address book in a safe in an apartment. Its just a different form of media.

The FBI is not asking Apple to take their encryption key and open a phone for them. Apple used to do that because they could and they would comply with the law.

What the FBI is asking now is that since the security has been upgraded so that Apple no longer has a key since iOS 8 was introduced, and therefore Apple cannot give access anymore, the FBI is whining and saying "Oh yeah, well now you need to manufacture software for us that bypasses all your security for us so we can open this one phone!" It's not asking the safe company to assist with opening the safe...its saying to the safe company, "We can't open your safe, you need to spend resources to design and manufacture a machine that opens this safe for us."

So what happens when Apple complies? Now they spend time, money, and resources to develop a hacked version of their OS which bypasses all the security they developed (security which was needed so that their phone would be secure when they added things like Apple Pay, which stores credit card information in people's phones, etc). So then they use their new hacked iOS to open the one phone for the FBI. What do they do with it then? Delete it, to restore security back to the way things were? Once they do this once for the FBI, the FBI will be coming back again and again to make them recreate the hacked OS for every phone they need. The reality is that they will have to keep it. The security they built into their devices to protect their customer (and also protect themselves from being a source of data breach) will be nullified. The FBI is not only asking them to spend resources to do the FBI's investigation for them (not merely hand over the key) but these resources that they are asking them to create potentially seriously harms them.

aTm's takes on this are shockingly on-point, correct.

I know, right? Where'd this kid come from?

aTm wrote:The FBI is not asking Apple to take their encryption key and open a phone for them. Apple used to do that because they could and they would comply with the law.

What the FBI is asking now is that since the security has been upgraded so that Apple no longer has a key since iOS 8 was introduced, and therefore Apple cannot give access anymore, the FBI is whining and saying "Oh yeah, well now you need to manufacture software for us that bypasses all your security for us so we can open this one phone!" It's not asking the safe company to assist with opening the safe...its saying to the safe company, "We can't open this safe, you need to spend resources to design and manufacture a machine that opens all the safes you manufacture for us."

Slightly fyp

The weak point of the security in the iPhone's is the user's code. Purposefully. It's very similar to a PIN number, easy for the user to remember, and generally hard for a criminal to make use of (since a criminal cannot sit at the ATM or grocery store and try 10,000 four digit combinations until it works). It's weakness comes when you allow someone an easy method to brute force it. If you allow someone to sit there with all the time in the world to try every combination they will crack it. What Apple's software does to attain strong security is that the phone deletes all personal data on the phone after 10 unsuccessful tries to enter this code. I believe it also forces you to wait a set period of time between tries once a handful of misses happen in a row.

What the FBI wants is for apple to create an iphone operating system that removes the safety erase function and the wait timing fuction and that allows for electronic input of the code via the lightning port. Ostensibly this new OS would allow someone to input all 10,000 or 1,000,000 codes (you can set your phone to have either a 4 or 6 digit code) in a matter of minutes. You can see how such a thing would be popular with thieves. Falling into criminal hands would allow someone to steal an iphone, brute force the code electronically in a few minutes, delete the old persons fingerprints and add yours and now you can use any Apple Pay credit cards they might have stored in their phone's digital wallet, for example.

OK, I can't support the FBI asking for the key to own

that said, I don't believe for a second that Apple doesn't have a key to their encryption on this version of the phone.

and I doubt the FBI does either.

seems to be different versions floating around

No one will ever know what was going on inside the head of one of the terrorists who went on a deadly rampage late last year in San Bernardino, California, killing 14. But FBI investigators would like to know what was going on inside his iPhone — and Apple should do more to help them.

A federal judge has ordered Apple to assist the agency in getting access to Syed Rizwan Farook’s iPhone 5c, arguing that it probably contains information critical to the investigation. Apple calls this government overreach and is preparing for a fight.

On the surface, the court order is fairly straightforward. The Justice Department has a warrant to search the phone, and the data in question could be crucial: It could include messages, photographs and contacts that might show whether Farook was connected to a larger terrorist network or was planning further attacks.

But Farook’s phone has a security feature that automatically clears its data after 10 incorrect attempts at entering a password. The FBI wants Apple to create a customized version of its operating system to circumvent the security feature and allow its agents to try as many password combinations as it takes to gain access.

Apple Chief Executive Officer Tim Cook sees this request more ominously: The government, he wrote in a message posted on the company’s website, has “asked us to build a backdoor to the iPhone.”

But this wouldn’t be a backdoor because it wouldn’t be built into Apple’s products — a deliberate weakness that hackers might hope to exploit. It would be a technique for opening the phone over which Apple would retain sole control, subject to court order. In fact, the order says the software need never leave the company’s campus.

It’s hardly unusual for the government to ask a company for assistance when one of its products is used in a crime. Gun purveyors are enlisted in murder investigations, telecoms must cooperate with wiretaps, banks spend more hours and dollars preventing money laundering than you’d imagine. Everyone has their orders.

eCat wrote:OK, I can't support the FBI asking for the key to own

that said, I don't believe for a second that Apple doesn't have a key to their encryption on this version of the phone.

and I doubt the FBI does either.

Part of the encryption key is stored in each device. There is no master, its unique to the electronics within the phone. Apple doesn't keep track of it, doesn't want to have it. Basically each device has a unique encryption key that it applies to the data stored there using the user's passcode.

you can say that but I'm still not buying it from Apple.

Its a great marketing ploy but I'm just a cynic

Well, anyway that's how it works. Each device has a UID that is hardcoded into the processor. I guess apple could easily have kept track of which UID key went into each phone by serial number but they could be telling the truth that they dont keep track of it as easily as they could lie and keep track of it anyway. Simply not keeping track of it like they said would save them a lot of liability if it got out.

The FBI has the phone, everything they need is in there. They probably could flash all of the data out of the phone, analyze the hardware to find the UID, and then try every passcode until the data is decrypted on a PC. They want to take the easy way and just have Apple compromise their own system for them so they dont actually have to hire people that can do all that or risk destroying their evidence. Fuck them.

If Apple loses this case and is forced to create a backdoor for the FBI, what I'm guessing will happen is that with iOS 10 the phones will no longer accept software updates from Apple without the user entering their passcode which means that the phones would then even reject an attempt to place a backdoor operating system even from Apple onto them without erasing the data.

aTm wrote:Is Social Science Politically Biased?

8:1 liberal to conservative ratio and that's led them to believe there is a lack of diversity?

Science is objective!

Social science isn't science.

I know I am displaying my technological ignorance, but doesn't your carrier have all the phone, texts, and email information anyway?

AlabamAlum wrote:Social science isn't science.

What next? Physics isn't science? Chemistry isn't science??

Well, it has science in the name, and political science is science. Next you'll try to tell me that Fruity Pebbles has no fruit nor pebbles in it.

They wouldn't lie..