The Goat Pen

eCat wrote:I hate that one badly misguided kid with parent who were clearly out of touch parents (Dad - hey, I'm gonna buy my apartheid supporting son who has Rhodesian military posters a gun for his birthday to celebrate him becoming a man) has done something emotional enough to drive the debate but I do think its time to retire the Confederate flag to the history books and museums.

If it doesn't represent racism, it represents a divided America - and regardless of our views on states rights and the right to secede, its symbolism is , IMO, no longer relevant in modern America.

Whatever many things the Rebel battle flag represented prior to the mid 1950s, since then it has been used primarily as a signifier of racism, oppression and maintenance of an unequal status quo. I just hate that it apparently takes the death of an unimpeachable negro to finally get people to acknowledge the reality that exists with regard to race and equality in this country. Finally, no one could say "hey, he was only 12 but he was big and mature looking," "his autopsy photo isn't a good representation of how big and menacing he was because you can't see muscle tone on dead people," "he scared me, he was big and seemed possessed and charged me like an animal," or "he was resisting and I felt scared for my life." Killing a man who is praying in his church pretty much lops off a lot of the banners that black men have foisted above their heads that allows people to characterize us as exigently dangerous.

I have driven on roads that bear the names of Confederate generals who were willing to lose their lives in the pursuit of keeping my forefathers as chattel. People in my family have swung as strange fruit from trees where that flag was used as rallying point. If I never see it again outside of a museum will be fine with me...the same way a Jew would not feel an ounce of issue with the disappearance of a Nazi flag.

And this guy states it better than me... http://www.businessinsider.com/slack-ce ... nal-2015-6

But most of the powerbrokers of the north didn't care about slavery. Many were engaging in an ersatz slavery in the form of indentured servitude. Hell, Lincoln said, essentially, that he would gladly keep the slaves in chains if the south wouldn't secede, and we don't need to lose sight of the fact that the U.S. was sanctioning the slave trade long before there was a confederacy.

That said, it isn't the flag of the U.S. and it has no more business on the Capitol in Columbia than the English flag does.

Senator Sessions on the Obamatrade just passed by the Senate:

“Americans increasingly believe that their country isn’t serving its own citizens. They need look no further than a bipartisan vote of Congress that will transfer congressional power to the Executive Branch and, in turn, to a transnational Pacific Union and the global interests who will help write its rules.

"The same routine plays out over and again. We are told a massive bill must be passed, all the business lobbyists and leaders tell how grand it will be, but that it must be rushed through before the voters spoil the plan. As with Obamacare and the Gang of Eight, the politicians meet with the consultants to craft the talking points—not based on what the bill actually does, but what they hope people will believe it does. And when ordinary Americans who never asked for the plan, who don’t want the plan, who want no part of the plan, resist, they are scorned, mocked, and heaped with condescension.

"Washington broke arms and heads to get that 60th vote—not one to spare—to impose on the American people a plan which imperils their jobs, wages, and control over their own affairs. It is remarkable that so much energy has been expended on advancing the things Americans oppose, and preventing the things Americans want.

"For instance: thousands of loyal Americans have been laid off and forced to train the foreign workers brought in to fill their jobs—at Disney, at Southern California Edison, across the country. Does Washington rush to their defense? No, the politicians and the lobbyists rush to move legislation that would double or triple the very program responsible for replacing them.

"This ‘econometarian’ ideology holds that if a company can increase its bottom line —whether by insourcing foreign workers or outsourcing production—then it’s always a win, never a downside.

"President Obama, and allies in Congress, have won this fast-track vote. But, in exchange, they may find that they are losing something far greater: the trust of the American people. Americans have a fundamental, decent, and just demand: that the people they elect defend their interests. And every issue to come before us in the coming months will have to pass this test: does this strengthen, or weaken, the position of the everyday, loyal American citizen?”

Bklyn wrote:

eCat wrote:I hate that one badly misguided kid with parent who were clearly out of touch parents (Dad - hey, I'm gonna buy my apartheid supporting son who has Rhodesian military posters a gun for his birthday to celebrate him becoming a man) has done something emotional enough to drive the debate but I do think its time to retire the Confederate flag to the history books and museums.

If it doesn't represent racism, it represents a divided America - and regardless of our views on states rights and the right to secede, its symbolism is , IMO, no longer relevant in modern America.

Whatever many things the Rebel battle flag represented prior to the mid 1950s, since then it has been used primarily as a signifier of racism, oppression and maintenance of an unequal status quo. I just hate that it apparently takes the death of an unimpeachable negro to finally get people to acknowledge the reality that exists with regard to race and equality in this country. Finally, no one could say "hey, he was only 12 but he was big and mature looking," "his autopsy photo isn't a good representation of how big and menacing he was because you can't see muscle tone on dead people," "he scared me, he was big and seemed possessed and charged me like an animal," or "he was resisting and I felt scared for my life." Killing a man who is praying in his church pretty much lops off a lot of the banners that black men have foisted above their heads that allows people to characterize us as exigently dangerous.

I have driven on roads that bear the names of Confederate generals who were willing to lose their lives in the pursuit of keeping my forefathers as chattel. People in my family have swung as strange fruit from trees where that flag was used as rallying point. If I never see it again outside of a museum will be fine with me...the same way a Jew would not feel an ounce of issue with the disappearance of a Nazi flag.

And this guy states it better than me... http://www.businessinsider.com/slack-ce ... nal-2015-6

I don't think you can just diminish the heritage of the people who live there though.

50 years from now Latinos may be demanding that MLK boulevard be changed Marco Rubio Blvd too

If they do, fine. That's not apples to apples, though. Marco Rubio, at least to date, did not do anything to me or my ethnic group. Also, Dr. King advocated just as hard for the Latino (directly and by default) as he did for African Americans. I'm talking about a symbol of violence and oppression, that's not anything I can say about King or Rubio.

I understand many would conflate that, however, because to your eyes there is no difference between what Dr. King means to the lives of black people and what the flag means to the lives of some southerners (heritage). That is the difficult thing for me to accept from people, considering the documented history of the flag and the reasons for secession, but I do recognize that it exists. Either way, it's a logical fallacy and a total conflation.

AlabamAlum wrote:But most of the powerbrokers of the north didn't care about slavery. Many were engaging in an ersatz slavery in the form of indentured servitude. Hell, Lincoln said, essentially, that he would gladly keep the slaves in chains if the south wouldn't secede, and we don't need to lose sight of the fact that the U.S. was sanctioning the slave trade long before there was a confederacy.

That said, it isn't the flag of the U.S. and it has no more business on the Capitol in Columbia than the English flag does.

Oh yes, I recognize and have a deep understanding of the full history of slavery and even the oppression and disenfranchisement that occurred to the black American community since Reconstruction. I know the role JP Morgan (and other financial institutions) played in the slave trade. I know the role local governments played in the unlawful land grabs from home owners in the south. I know the role the federal government played in denying home ownership to deserving blacks up through the '50s and '60s. I know the role civic organizations played in redlining districts and creating housing covenants through the 1970s. I know the role that landlords have played in keeping minorities out of housing opportunities up through 90s. I'm very clear on all the things that have left a long list of hurdles (MUCH longer than the few housing-only related items I list here) in front of my grandfather, my father, my brothers and me (and my opposing gender lineage, as well). I'm clear on it even when others I know and respect are not. Being seen as a minority has real, defined and quantitative impact on your chances in this country (shit, Gov. Nikki Haley filled out her voter registration card as a white woman...even though she is Indian, because she knows the drill). I'm clear and not placing a whole lot of attribution on one flag that was created to create a chasm in the Union and dissolve it.

I'm just saying that, as far as symbols go, I am a-ok with it not ever hitting my line of sight outside of a museum. We can talk about the other fucked up things that we need to fix about ourselves as a country afterwards.

Agreed. It has no place on a state owned building.

Brook, not trying to open a can of worms here (or maybe I am, but only b/c I think we can handle it in good faith), and I don't ask this with the smug sneer that I already know the answer, but rather am really interested in your thoughts on it: How do you address the issue of "well, what if there had never been a slave trade and "you" were still in Africa right now?" Is there no merit in the idea that American blacks, even in the face of everything they have suffered, are better off (for lack of a better term) than if they had never been brought over here? I can easily see the "no" side of that argument, although in the face of european (and american, and hell, most of the rest of the developed world) raping of Africa over the last century plus, I don't know exactly how convinced of that I really am. But I can see the "No, no one should ever be made a slave irregardless of future opportunities that may result centuries later" side of it. But I also look around and see plenty of black folks living at minimum very comfortable lives and participating in modern society, and plenty of others doing far better than that. Maybe some would say that if they had just been left alone, many africans would've integrated into western civilization (or whatever you want to call it) on their own accord and by their own choice, but I don't think anyone knows what that may have looked like or if it would've even been possible. Again, to reiterate, I am asking this question in good faith, not b/c I think I already "know" that the answer is "of course you're better off", but b/c I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on it...

Racist

I'm not a racist, but I am a ratist...

Shit hedge, I thought you were gonna ask a real complicated question...like "nigger" "nigga" bullshit. This is lay up material.

I have many thoughts on this...and some I will borrow from a few of my favorite comedians. Some will be from my own compass...

1. It's impossible to argue a negative (and you hit on it, a bit). I have no idea how Africa would have become if those Malian or Ghanan persons in my bloodline were not shipped to Africa. I do know that I would not be alive right now, as my heritage is made up of Scottish, Native, African and Asian descent. I also don't know what would have become of Africa, as whole, if Europeans did not colonize and simply traded with the indigenous people in Africa. It's an impossible question I am in no position to answer.

2. If we held all other things constant, if I was born and raised in 1970s Africa I could very well be running around right now with a dusty "New England Patriots 19 - 0" tee shirt, tuxedo pants and machete now. - Patrice O'Neal

3. America has been good to all of us, natural immigrant and unwilling immigrant, alike. For black people today, however, it's a bit more complicated. America is like the uncle who paid for you to go to college, but molested you. - Chris Rock

I will say, regardless of the benefits being here have given all of us (starving Irishmen, persecuted religious idiots, Mediterranean risk takers and other plague/famine/justice dodgers), that doesn't mean we don't acknowledge what was done poorly and try to work on ways to make us all better. That's what I'm saying.

On the flag thing, and the argument of "heritage" I thought this was good...if you want to take the 10 minutes to read

The Civil War was about economics, not slavery!
•Yes, the Civil War was about the economics of slavery.

The Civil War was about states’ rights, not slavery!
•Yes, the Civil War was about the states’ right to maintain slavery.

That’s not the Confederate flag!
•True, it’s the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, which actually makes your usage even worse. It’s the banner under which men fought and died to enact secession.

Heritage not hate!
•Funny story: the heritage is hate. This is my favorite talking point because it sets up a false dichotomy and then tries to pretend “heritage” is a signifier for some romantic, noble culture just waiting to be recaptured. When Lindsay Graham says things like, “The flag represents to some people a civil war, and that was the symbol of one side. To others it’s a racist symbol, and it’s been used by people, it’s been used in a racist way,” he makes a mockery of the history. Yes, Senator, it does represent one side of the Civil War: the side that advocated slavery and secession. It’s the flag of treason.

Great answer Brook. I still want to know why Hedge still flies his confederate flag above his trailer.

I was once a racist. Only because I was too young to understand. Where I grew up in Roselawn until i was 5 was totally white and majority jewish. Around 1976 people in Roselawn started having multiple break ins. Most were caught. Most were black. It led an exedus out of Roselawn to Blue Ash and Montgomery where I still live today.

As a 2nd grader I really didn't understand the word nigger. From what I learned from my adopted family it was what we called black people. Until one day I got educated on the word. Again, 2nd grade. A black guy was walking down the street and I was playing at my friends house outside across the street. A black guy was walking down the sidewalk and I yelled out, "Hey, there goes one of those niggers!"

Again, my parents never would ever teach me this. It was Grandpa and friends parents. If mine knew, they would have beat me like Hedges ex did him.

Anyway, said black guy heard me, crossed the street, came up to me, grabbed a handful of dog poop and proceeded to shove it in my 2nd grade mouth.

Lesson learned

It's OK to rob jews...

That's what I said

We are all racist to some extent. To say you are not, you are just lying. Its just our human nature. All groups are more comfortable with their own kind and a little bit distrustful of the other because of our preconceived opinions until you get to know a particular individual of another race. You feel comfortable with those acquaintances, but still have prejudices of others within their race.

The differences is that prejudice against African Americans or Asians by whites can cause more harm to those races than if those races are prejudice against whites because, currently, whites have the upper hand in majority and wealth. So the burden is on the whites to make sure that our country stays true on the rights for all.

"All groups are more comfortable with their own kind and a little bit distrustful of the other because of our preconceived opinions until you get to know a particular individual of another race."

And then you really hate them...

I do have an Asian friend that can be extremely irritating.

The good thing is that you can blindfold those people with dental floss...

No, he's Indian Asian so he just needs to shower.