The Goat Pen

Video killed the racist cop.

eCat wrote:

AlabamAlum wrote:More people are graduating now.

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more people are graduating now because there are more people. Technology , competition and demand have resulted in options that allow students to graduate faster or easier - I don't think school have embraced those ideas, they just recognized they were going to lose out if they didn't implement them.

I wouldn't support a model that incentivized colleges to graduate students, however I would support a model that says a college credit paid for is good until a student earns a "C" in the class and putting more stringent requirements on receiving a student loan, such as a qualification review/exam each year and a monthly payout tied to the student being in school versus a lump sum payout up front at the start of each year or semester.

I do like the idea of sponsored degrees.

I was talking about percentages. Not total number. Somewhere near 30% of American adults have degrees now.

As of last March, 30.4 percent of people over age 25 in the United States held at least a bachelor's degree, and 10.9 percent held a graduate degree, up from 26.2 percent and 8.7 percent 10 years earlier.Feb 23, 2012

As far as "schools not embracing (distance education)", I can only address the one I am familar with, and they have.

And I absolutely would not favor free school until you pass a course. Again, it incentivizes the school to pass the unworthy student. To me, that would be like telling a manager he couldn't fire an employee; that he'd have to keep letting an employee try until he did the job right. No. Hate that.

Now, do we we want to make college much tougher to get into like some other countries? I personally hate that, too. I like the fact that virtually everyone has a chance to go to college.

I'm not saying free school - I'm saying you paid for the class, and you take it until you get a "C"

If the student isn't smart enough -he's never going to pass it, but if the student had some personal problem or medical condition and had to withdraw, I don't think he /she should have to pay another $1500 or whatever again to take the class - and the second time doesn't have to be face to face or a traditional teaching.

I disagree with the "take it until you pass" scheme. It would be free school. Students retaking a class 22 times until they can pass - taking up time, space, and resources in each of those attempts. Re: space: many difficult classes have seat limits. The instructor to student ratio is fixed and mandated by accrediting bodies (for good reason).

Say, for example, 30 students per instructor in some difficult lab class. If you have 8 students who are "free repeaters" due to failure, you now only have 22 spots for new students or you have to hire another instructor.

As far as medical or personal problems, schools already do that (with limits). You give an "incomplete" and they can make up missed work. Plus, all schools have a policy where you can withdraw early and get a refund; of course, the later you withdraw, the less you get (if any).

As of last March, 30.4 percent of people over age 25 in the United States held at least a bachelor's degree, and 10.9 percent held a graduate degree, up from 26.2 percent and 8.7 percent 10 years earlier.Feb 23, 2012

This is one of those stats that reminds me that, despite the fact I feel like the world is much smaller and we're all way more connected, I still live in a bubble. Essentially every adult I interact with regularly (certainly all my family and friends) have college degrees and almost all of my family, friends, and close colleagues have masters or higher degrees.

"And I can only address the college that I teach at: we have not attempted to draw out or extend a student's career. Just the opposite, there are more ways to finish on time or early now due to bridge programs and distance learning."

We've got something like that at UNC. It's called the AfAm department...

AlabamAlum wrote:I disagree with the "take it until you pass" scheme. It would be free school. Students retaking a class 22 times until they can pass - taking up time, space, and resources in each of those attempts. Re: space: many difficult classes have seat limits. The instructor to student ratio is fixed and mandated by accrediting bodies (for good reason).

But there's wait list's already - its not like if 300 freshmen want to take public speaking and the school has set aside space for 50 students they are going to create 5 more classes. We've all played the class sign up game before. I'm sure once they got into a flow, its like anything else, they'd adjust to the new demands of that rule.

Is it realistic that someone will attempt to take a class 22 times? I'd say they'd max out at 3 - life will eventually get in the way here - and perhaps there should be a cap on the number of attempts but this isn't incentivizing schools to pass students. Its maximizing the value of the student's dollar. If anything, schools will be incentivized to make sure they are accepting the right demographic of student for their curriculum - are you prepared to take this class?, if not we aren't taking your money because you're going to cost us in the long run. The same should be true of student loans - Are you adequately prepared to go to college to the point we will guarantee the college thousands of dollars on your behalf?

I'm in the private training business and teaching at the college level is how I ended up in the private training sector.

Distance learning and live online training has revolutionized how we train our employees now.

Now we are incorporating the cloud into our training structure. We're actually using Amazon as our cloud provider.

Cletus,

Yeah. Imagine the life of someone in 2015 supporting a family with a HS diploma as his only education. I know there are a few business owners/tradesmen, and some entertainers and athletes who do it with a good standard of living, but Sam who works at the gas station making 10.25 an hour...

Apparently that's 70% or so of America.

eCat wrote:I'm in the private training business and I teaching at the college level is how I ended up in the private training sector.

Distance learning and live online training has revolutionized how we train our employees now.

Now we are incorporating the cloud into our training structure. We're actually using Amazon as our cloud provider.

No doubt. There are a number of courses where that works. And that number is growing. But there are courses where it doesn't.

AlabamAlum wrote:Cletus,

Yeah. Imagine the life of someone in 2015 supporting a family with a HS diploma as his only education. I know there are a few business owners/tradesmen, and some entertainers and athletes who do it with a good standard of living, but Sam who works at the gas station making 10.25 an hour...

Apparently that's 70% or so of America.

which is why I've been harping on a living wage for so long.

You aren't going to get 70% of Americans into college, a vocational program, the military or driving trucks for a living.

That's why welfare is a good thing. Just think if these people really got pissed off. We already know that "let them eat cake" doesn't work out too well for the more privileged classes. Welfare (of all kinds) is probably the only thing keeping them from revolution. Cheap (or even free) housing, a small stipend for food and just enough money to pay for power, cable and a cell phone keep the natives from becoming too restless. It's not cheap, but it's better than the alternative...

hedge wrote:That's why welfare is a good thing. Just think if these people really got pissed off. We already know that "let them eat cake" doesn't work out too well for the more privileged classes. Welfare (of all kinds) is probably the only thing keeping them from revolution. Cheap (or even free) housing, a small stipend for food and just enough money to pay for power, cable and a cell phone keep the natives from becoming too restless. It's not cheap, but it's better than the alternative...

that's the ying and yang - government provides a security net for those that can't get by - but has a minimum wage that guarantees they can't live (by American standards) without using the safety net.

And then a business like Wal-Mart uses that as part of their business model to maximize profits.

So everybody is happy. A perfect blend of capitalism and socialism. The rich get richer, the poor get cable and a cell phone...

Obviously most of my friends and people I interact with have degrees but its not so in my family.

Grandparents - 4 - no degrees
Their kids and spouses (2 parents, 6 uncles, 6 aunts) - 2 degrees, one an uncle I rarely see except on family occasions (his wife, my Mom's sister passed away in the 80's), one an ex-husband of an aunt who also is still close to the family.
My generation (me, 6 first cousins, 3 spouses) - Hmm...6 out of 9 so far I think with one cousin TBD. Me, 3 first cousins, 2 spouses of first cousins, and another first cousin who I think will likely get a degree is still in high school. There are also I think a couple ex-wives of cousins that I think had degrees but Im not including here.
2nd cousins - This number will go up as there are many younger than 18, but I we are currently 0 for 3 so far, plus one spouse in this generation. Most of the younger ones will come from college educated households and likely get degrees.

So 8 out of 31 roughly, which will likely go up a bit.

The assumption on my son right now by him and me is that he is going to college.

But I wouldn't be opposed to him working in a tradecraft where he could apprentice and maybe even own his own business one day.

What the hell is a 2nd cousin?

2nd cousins are people who share the same great-grandparents but not the same grandparents.

My graduating senior has no interest in college what so ever. I'm not pushing it either.

aTm wrote:2nd cousins are people who share the same great-grandparents but not the same grandparents.

That's to confusing