The Goat Pen

So much I have to type on this. I'll get there...

Thanks for your contribution AA. You get it.

Did Michael Brown deserve to get shot?- well ...depending on which witness you believe, yes he did.

A 12 year old boy with a bb gun? I'm sorry - Even if 12 year olds have established an MSI chapter dedicated to killing cops at the local playground - you don't shoot a 12 year old unless he is shooting at you or someone else - he gets the benefit of the doubt - you take cover, you call for back up - you go thru a long laundry list of things to do before you pull the trigger on a kid because you thought he was a threat. If 12 year olds look like 20 years, you *still* give them the benefit of the doubt.

And I would tell a cop - if you can't accept that and give me the "I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure I get home after my shift" mantra , if I were in charge, I'd let him know he just served his last shift. I just saved your life. Go be an accountant.

The bottom line is, I believe, that in many of these cases, a veteran cop with a public servant attitude would have handled it differently and these people in question would still be alive.

If one cop has an approach that works, then they all should.

"1,163,146 violent crimes in this country last year and all we are concentrating on is villifying those who are in charge of protecting us"

I wasn't really vilifying anybody (although obviously anybody who is criminally negligent, including cops, deserves vilification), just saying that I don't believe citizens under our constitution are obligated to defer to cops in every situation. I would actually say it should be more the opposite. Of course, it is up to the citizens to educate themselves and understand exactly what is required of them and what is not. And if a cop asks or requests of them something that they are not authorized to request, then the citizen is under no obligation to comply, and in fact, I would argue that they are obligated to assert their rights. Not saying they should be mouthy or arrogant about it, but you can politely assert your rights and maybe even point out that it is really the primary job of the cop to defend those rights, not abridge them...

crashcourse wrote: not complying with the law will get you shot/hurt/arrested etc

and thats the way it needs to be. without our police having these liberties we have anarchy.

Or we'd have a democracry. Fuck this idea that police can meet any resistance with deadly force. If you're concerned with police safety then work to repeal the 2nd Amendment because they damn sure would love to see guns taken out of the hands of the people. I'm guessing that's not your MO though...

From the NPR piece that AA linked:

"I'm not against law enforcement, even though a law officer killed my son," Bell says. "And I do recognize that a number of police officers risk their life to protect people. In fact, police officers need to be part of the solution."

That pretty much says it all...

Yep

"And if a cop asks or requests of them something that they are not authorized to request"

I dont think the cops asked for anything out of the ordinary on most of these publicized incidents.

"put your hands on your head"
"let me see your hands"
"get down on the ground"

"If 12 year olds look like 20 years, you *still* give them the benefit of the doubt."

"a veteran cop with a public servant attitude would have handled it differently "

maybe. bottom line is 2 grand juries have found those cops innocent.
the cleveland case is still being investigated I think but nobody knew that kid was 12, that 911 call from the public said somebody was waving a gun and people were scared. what do you think a cop is going to do in that scenario. supposedly there is camera showing the cop asking the kid "let me see your hands" three times and then the kid reached into his belt.

nobody knew he was 12. giving somebody looking like 20 the benefit of the doubt you are looking at a dead or injured cop

our military kills a helluva lot more of the innocent and our own troops then any policemen ever has
it is accepted that there are going to be collateral damage.

Im not saying the cops dont fuck up--they do
but the system is about as perfect as your gonna get. cops wer a lot dirtier 10-20 years ago then they are now. you have to have every one of your t's crossed and every i dotted just to get a DUI conviction. most cops get interrogated like they are the guilty party every time thy go to court to try to support one of their arrests. they are dehumnanized and made to feel like they are the croiminal. I saw it with my own eytes when my car got swiped by a frequemnt felon last year and depsite them catching him in my car with all the tools and crack paraphellelia along with 3 other counts including assualt the guy walked with a slap on the wrist.

anyway I will listen to npr and await Bklns views

and ask why the public was so outraged with michael brown being killed by a white officer and so passive when 300 of their own brothers are killed in chicago year after year

People who don't speak English, have orthopedic issues that prevent them from putting their hands on their heads, and the mentally handicapped living in crashcourse's America better invest in some Kevlar.

Crash is right. If all three men had obeyed the commands of the police officers, they are alive today. PERIOD. There is no argument to this.

The cops are not the Nazi party. They are not out to get us.

Guess what, if you are breaking the law, they have every right to call you out on it. Oh, it's just a little dime bag of weed. If it is illegal where you are, then fuck you. It is illegal. If you are drinking and driving, fuck you, go to jail.

It is time to change the culture of both cops and community. To not be afraid to call the police when in trouble. To not be afraid to comply with an officer's commands. To not be afraid of going up to car to check on a potential dwi and fear of being shot. For communities to take pride in themselves and weed out the drug pushers, criminals, and take care of their shit from the trailer park to the ghetto.

2 officers shot and killed, Al Sharpton still marches and preaches. Bet your sweet ass if they were african american officers shot down by african american, he would change his song about peace and tolerance.

Breath easy bitches. Don't break the law.

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AlabamAlum wrote:People who don't speak English, have orthopedic issues that prevent them from putting their hands on their heads, and the mentally handicapped living in crashcourse's America better invest in some Kevlar.

LMAO at orthopedic issues. I can rob this store ir but I can put my hands over my shoulders cause an old football injury.

I'm a goody-goody nerdy white guy who has never had a problem with the law in my life, don't have anything to hide, and I can tell you that it would have to be damn serious for me to ever call the cops for anything. In my mind if I call the police and they show up I am immediately a potential suspect in something no matter what I called them for. Plus throw in the fact that they are gonna be showing up armed and dangerous? Fuck that noise, its gonna have to be an "armed and dangerous" problem for me to call them.

I would also bet that if you polled the Al Sharpton flock if they could name the child that was killed in Florida in 2012, I would bet that less than 50% would remember his name without looking it up or some sort of hint.

BigRedMan wrote:

AlabamAlum wrote:People who don't speak English, have orthopedic issues that prevent them from putting their hands on their heads, and the mentally handicapped living in crashcourse's America better invest in some Kevlar.

LMAO at orthopedic issues. I can rob this store ir but I can put my hands over my shoulders cause an old football injury.

Who said they're robbing a store? Garner wasn't. The kid with the air soft gun wasn't. The guy in the story I linked wasn't.

Cops have shot people for "not complying" after stopping someone for questioning.

And my grandfather, who was deaf, and could not lift his left arm past shoulder high (both war injuries) would not comply with the 'reasonable' request of the officer.

AlabamAlum wrote:

BigRedMan wrote:

AlabamAlum wrote:People who don't speak English, have orthopedic issues that prevent them from putting their hands on their heads, and the mentally handicapped living in crashcourse's America better invest in some Kevlar.

LMAO at orthopedic issues. I can rob this store ir but I can put my hands over my shoulders cause an old football injury.

Who said they're robbing a store? Garner wasn't. The kid with the air soft gun wasn't. The guy in the story I linked wasn't.

Obey the commands. Live to have your day in court.

AlabamAlum wrote:And my grandfather, who was deaf, and could not lift his left arm past shoulder high (both war injuries) would not comply with the 'reasonable' request of the officer.

We could go back and forth on evidence for either side. Your grandfather, you, and me were raised to respect the law and understand our rights. That is the difference in the culture now. It is a Fuck Da Police attitude first and not, Yes Officer and No Officer.

I mean as many cell phones and cameras out there now, you would think the "bad evil cop" shit would be caught more. Nope, just happens to be the "aftermath" or the arrest. Almost funny how none of the why it lead up to this situation video is out there?

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/ali-mey ... shot-death

They didn't break it down by race.

Funny I didn't see anything about this this week.

The most recent death by assault is that of Officer Charles Kondek who died on Sunday, Dec. 21. Kondek was shot while responding to a noise complaint call, then run over by the suspect's car as he fled the scene.

BigRedMan wrote:

AlabamAlum wrote:And my grandfather, who was deaf, and could not lift his left arm past shoulder high (both war injuries) would not comply with the 'reasonable' request of the officer.

We could go back and forth on evidence for either side. Your grandfather, you, and me were raised to respect the law and understand our rights. That is the difference in the culture now. It is a Fuck Da Police attitude first and not, Yes Officer and No Officer.

I mean as many cell phones and cameras out there now, you would think the "bad evil cop" shit would be caught more. Nope, just happens to be the "aftermath" or the arrest. Almost funny how none of the why it lead up to this situation video is out there?

It does not change the fact that some people are unable to comply and are innocent. Getting shot for not obeying quickly enough is unacceptable. My last time in Italy, I was screamed at by police. My Italian is weak. So I stood there and looked at him and tried my best to translate. When he realized I didn't understand, he smiled and told me to move my goddamned car in broken English (it wasn't even my car, I was just standing close to it). Also, Citizens do not have to be nice to cops. Finally, plenty of bad cop stuff is caught on camera. Buncha cops don't like it, either. That's why so many have (illegally) forbade citizens from filming. People have been arrested for camera use, cameras have been confiscated and erased (again, illegally).

I know a lot of cops

they are no different then me or you.

but there are certain parts of america where cops have to have a different attitude because there is a threat every day that they could be shot. those are the cops taking the most heat wher crime is at its highest. its not that much different from being on the front lines in war.

an 18 yo was shot in missouri last night. he had a gun raised it and pointed at the officers who took him down. gun in hand/pointed at the police/refused to put it down.

public response--100 protesters against the police action within a few hours.