The Goat Pen

he has no knees

and Z was a shell of himself when he got healthy

T Dot O Dot wrote:Cavs are offering Bynum 24 mil over 2 years

WAY too risky a move. I wouldnt touch him with anything more than the mid-level exception... and even then I wouldnt feel too good about it

Its a smart deal as the 2nd year is supposedly a team option.

Worst case is it preserves their cap space for next year and they can make a run at the better players.

if your franchise PG can barely stay on the floor all other acquisitions should be 100% healthy

I didnt know about the team option on the 2nd year though, I just read ATL is offering a guaranteed 2nd year for less money

Tyler Zeller >>> Andrew Bynum (just trying to enrage Brook)...

You're close.

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... he-pistons

Dunking > Tanking: All Hail the Pistons



By Andrew Sharp on July 31, 2013 1:35 PM ET



Gary Dineen/NBAE via Getty Images


We thought the NBA offseason was over, we thought it was time to move on to football, we thought Brandon Jennings was going spend the rest of his prime in NBA limbo like Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf.
BUT THEN:

Detroit and Milwaukee are nearing a sign-and-trade agreement to send Brandon Jennings to the Pistons, league sources tell Y! Sports. — Adrian Wojnarowski (@WojYahooNBA) July 30, 2013

And now we just need to take a few minutes to talk Pistons, because this team deserves to be celebrated. We might as well start with Jennings.

Brandon Jennings is not perfect. His problem is twofold. He's a streaky shooter and someone you can't totally depend on to show up and play well every night. If that were the only problem, that'd be fine. The second problem compounds it, though. Not only is Jennings streaky, but even when he's playing well he tends to monopolize the ball, and his success comes at the expense of everyone else, keeping them from getting into a rhythm, etc. That's why Jennings was unsigned until July 30, and why he's considered a level below some of the other point guards from his draft class (Ty Lawson, Steph Curry, Jrue Holiday). All of it makes sense.

On the other hand ... Jennings isn't as hopeless as everyone says. He's got enough talent to hang with the best point guards in the league and not get blown off the court. If you're paying him $12 million a year to be one of your two or three best players, then yeah, he's overrated and flawed and he'll drive you insane. But $8 million a year to fill a gaping hole at point guard? Then he's more of a luxury. And Jennings will be surrounded by more talent than he's ever seen in Milwaukee, with the added bonus of Chauncey Billups there to help him grow.

So much of the NBA comes down to luck. If you're not Kevin Durant or LeBron James, finding the right situation to thrive in is half the battle. For example, Ty Lawson is great, but he also landed in Denver, where he could (a) learn behind Andre Miller Chauncey Billups for his first year, and (b) push the ball constantly and play to his strengths. I'm not saying Lawson's overrated, but if you put him in Milwaukee for the past four seasons, he might have looked just as flawed as Brandon Jennings. Now, after a summer when Jennings kinda turned into a league-wide punch line, he lands in Detroit with a chip on his shoulder and a fresh start. This could work better than you think.

It was a smart deal.

Of course, it's also INSANE.

Three freak-athlete big men (Andre Drummond, Josh Smith, Greg Monroe) who can't shoot, a point guard who shoots too much (and still can't shoot), a bench full of wild cards, Will Bynum and Rodney Stuckey ... How is this really a team?

Everything about this Pistons squad and the way Joe Dumars built it has been a giant middle finger to everyone. Nobody would take a chance on Andre Drummond in the 2012 draft? The Pistons grabbed him. Nobody wanted to commit big money to Josh Smith? The Pistons swooped in and stole him for $54 million. Chauncey Billups is washed up? Chauncey Billups is coming back to Detroit. Tony Mitchell? Freak athlete/tweener who plummeted in the draft. BOOM. Pistons. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope? Well ... nobody has any clue what he'll end up doing. But, hey, Pistons.

Throw in Jennings, and COACH SHEED, and the Pistons are basically just stockpiling guys who have driven the whole world crazy. Now they'll drive the world crazy together. It's League Pass Christmas!

There are three big reasons to love what's happening here.

1. We live in tanktacular times. Practically every bad team in the NBA decided to tread water this summer or actively get worse. The Pelicans, Cavs, Wizards, and Blazers are exceptions, and maybe the Bobcats if you want to pretend the Bobcats are going to be better with Al Jefferson. But the Sixers, Jazz, Magic, Kings, Suns, Celtics, Mavs, Raptors, Bucks ... There are a lot of bad teams who are either kicking the can down the road till next summer or building a tanking Dream Team for this year, gunning for the deepest draft class in history.

That's all fine, it's just that over the past few years it feels like that model has become the de facto blueprint for mediocre teams looking to contend. Like, if your favorite team is in no-man's-land, you spend the year rooting for them to gut their roster over the summer and then hopefully get lucky in the lottery the following year. And even then, it has to happen in the right year. That's how NBA fans dream in 2013. (Tanktacular times ...)

It's all pretty depressing. The Pistons are your reminder that it doesn't have to be that way, and really, it has never actually been that way. Think of the franchises over the past handful of years that have landed top-three picks and built championship contenders. The Thunder, the Clippers, and ... the Cavs? The Wizards? Raptors? Kings? The "tear it down" model fails more often than it succeeds, and it takes years to work.

The Pistons began this summer in a dead zone, with all kinds of motivation to tread water and/or get rid of Greg Monroe, then land in the top eight picks next year (Charlotte has their 2014 pick, but it's top-eight protected).

Instead, they decided to gamble on guys like Smith and Jennings and put together an insanely athletic — and just insane — roster full of undervalued guys, and then see what comes next. As Tom Ziller pointed out a few weeks ago, this is how the Grizzlies happened. But even if the Pistons don't turn into Grit ’N' Grind: Motor City Remix, it's still pretty cool to see them break from the tanking ranks to go for it. Also:

2. All of these deals were smart. If things don't work, Jennings and Smith have decent contracts that could be moved anytime in the next few years, and Greg Monroe will be one of the three or four best trade chips in the NBA next year. If it were Daryl Morey making these moves, people would be praising him for "stockpiling assets," but it's Joe Dumars, so the refrain is more "LOL Pistons." Whatever. With the players they have, the Pistons management could make a play for Rajon Rondo, Kevin Love, or just clear space and go nuts in free agency again in 2014 or '15.
As it stands, I feel like the Pistons probably have to find a way to sign Stephen Jackson. I know there's no more cap space, but still. Make it happen. Just for the hell of it.

And finally ...

3. IT COULD WORK. I mean, sure, there are going to be some nights when the Pistons look like a complete disaster. Maybe that will be the whole year, until they deal Monroe and/or Jennings. It also hinges almost entirely on Drummond, who's still a complete wild card. He looked great in small doses last year so a lot of people expect much bigger things next year, but who knows?

Either way, we should celebrate the Pistons because regardless of whether it works or not, it'll be spectacular. I don't know if I believe in the Pistons' blueprint, but I'm glad it exists. It's better than having another team like the Sixers and Suns, both of whom will be unwatchable all year. Plus: Is some guy like Marcus Smart really worth throwing away another season and giving up on someone like Greg Monroe?

Instead, as we said a few weeks ago, Detroit's front line might dunk you to death. And maybe we'll watch Andre Drummond turn into a monster for real, Greg Monroe will play on the first good team of his career, and Brandon Jennings and Josh Smith will prove everyone wrong. There will be lots of spacing issues in the half-court, the lineup is still ridiculous to think about, Maurice Cheeks and COACH SHEED will have lots of work to do to make it all fit, etc. But whatever happens will be entertaining.

And while everyone gawks at Detroit insanity, remember that the team that can't shoot is also the team that should be able to outrebound everybody, and the Pistons will be a nightmare on defense and in the open court. I swear, it's so crazy it just might work. (Right?)
(Come on. Why not?)

(GO PISTONS.)

Laugh now (and maybe laugh later) but I think, if everything clicks, they can be as high as a 5-seed this year. 6 or 7-seed is probably more realistic.

I don't think the Pistons are laughable... and I also think they could be as high as 5 if all the stars aligned..... they are definitely better... BUT, the line up is flawed. It's like the Raps trading for Gay. A desparation move to remain slightly better than a lottery team.

I don't think that it is necessarily better than tanking. If Masai hasn't dumped Gay and Lowry because he thinks there is, or will be, genuine interest in those guys, then I am OK with his approach. If his approach thinks the team, as constructed, will ever contend for something meaningful..... then I cringe and weep. I would rather tank than hold a belief that the current group is something to build around.

The Pistons have done a similar re-tooling but I don't like those parts to be a meaningful contender. and I don't think you would get much value in any trade except for Drummond/Monroe so adding is going to be difficult. I can't see really good players accepting minimum level exceptions to join that group.

I think the path back to contender status hinges on Drummond. If he's more Dwight Howard (in impact, not mental toughness) than Serge Ibaka, he can attract some players down the road. He definitely showed some ability in attracting talent in his pursuit of Jeanette McCurdy.

I had never heard of her, so I hit Google. Not that impressed, but still, good for him.

I hadn't heard of her either. Apparently, the summer is over and so is their relationship. That's okay, it's time for winning.

I'm predicting that Andre finishes Top 5 in rebounding. He might even lead the league. I know it's preseason but he's averaged 12.4 boards against NBA teams (as well as 11.9 points) without breaking a sweat. I can see him at least matching those rebound numbers in the season.

The "experts" have been propping his contributions for almost a year, so I expect him to show me something. For the first time in ages you picked up some productive talent in the off season, so not many excuses for the D this year can be afforded.

Drummond is an athletic freak but the problem, for me, is that he doesn't seem to really be improving offensively. His shooting is atrocious... I had never actually seen an NBA player air ball consecutive ft's until last year. and one didn't even come close to hitting either the mesh or the backboard.

obviously it's way too early to write him off and say he can't do that but i didn't even see baby strides in his offensive output in the summer league. a guy with that much athletic ability and height, with even a modicum of offensive improvement, should absolutely obliterate that level of competition.

he is an interesting prospect to watch because his ceiling is high.

I saw him with a little jump-hook a couple of times in pre-season. Last night was pretty much all monster dunks. He was on his way to a big night until he got in foul trouble. He finished with 12 and 8. Monroe, looked very good. Check out the footwork! I know Coach Sheed is working with both of them. They were both also supposed to work with Hakeem in the summer but I think that might've been nixed after the Howard signing.

As for the team- This was the first time the Pistons are 1-0 since '09-'10. They haven't been 2-0 since '08-'09 when they started 4-0 (2 wins with Billups and 2 wins before "The Canswer" was cleared to play).

In between those wins with Billups & yesterday, the Pistons were 148-244. A .377 winning percentage.

Welcome back!

Chauncey actually did have a good game. 16 points 4 of 5 from 3-pt-land and 5 assists. He also played pretty solid D on Beal. I don't know if he'll have enough gas for a full season of that kind of play but it was nice to see Mr. Big Shot looking like time had not passed.

Supposedly, Jennings will be back by Sunday. I'm excited to see what the team looks like at full strength.

Also- Stuckey may return tomorrow night. I'm not sure if that's a positive or a negative. At least it pushes Bynum's minutes down. Will is like Nate Robinson, without any defense or 3-point accuracy. He can score a lot (at times) but also tends to dominate the ball and bog things down.

sotola wrote:Drummond is an athletic freak but the problem, for me, is that he doesn't seem to really be improving offensively. His shooting is atrocious... I had never actually seen an NBA player air ball consecutive ft's until last year. and one didn't even come close to hitting either the mesh or the backboard.

obviously it's way too early to write him off and say he can't do that but i didn't even see baby strides in his offensive output in the summer league. a guy with that much athletic ability and height, with even a modicum of offensive improvement, should absolutely obliterate that level of competition.

he is an interesting prospect to watch because his ceiling is high.

The scary thing about Drummond, is that other than FT shooting, 19 year-old rookie Andre Drummond was better across the board than 19-year-old rookie Dwight Howard.

But, man...that FT shooting...

Man, when you are comparing somebody to Dwight Howard and then talk about bad FT shooting as though it's worse than Howard, that is supremely bad.

Sim - it's not JUST his FT shooting for me because I am not really impressed with his footwork or passing out of the post. When he has got it going, it's purely because of freakish athleticism rather than fundamentals. Can he learn it? Of course. But Dwight's biggest critics always point to the same thing.... he hasn't.... and yet I think Howard still had better footwork with his back to the basket (.....and I don't think Howard was all that good then or now in that regard).

BUT, it's always better to have a guy with a legitimate high ceiling (as opposed to Stromile Swift, Hakeem Warrick, or all kinds of other athletically gifted players without freakish athletic ability). I can see all the things people rave about but I can't rave until I see some improvements on the smaller things. He will never be a bust like a lot of other athletically gifted players because he can always transform into a role player (ie. energy guy, defensive stopper, etc) based on his athleticism but i would like to see the small things before proclaiming him the next great center in the league. (which frankly I haven't seen since Shaq anyway).

it would be fun to be a Pistons fan to see what happens though.... I just worry that Smith and Monroe stunt his development. Monroe is the best player on that team and I don't think any coach is going to sit Smith after signing that contract so line ups might predict taking minutes away from Drummond. should be an interesting year in Piston Land

Owlman wrote:Man, when you are comparing somebody to Dwight Howard and then talk about bad FT shooting as though it's worse than Howard, that is supremely bad.

Yup. Dwight shot 67% from the line as a rookie. Drummond 37%.

But Drummond scored more efficiently from the field, was a better rebounder on both ends, had significantly higher steal and block rates, lower turnover rate. Dwight got to the line slightly more and fouled less.

http://bkref.com/tiny/QaeYW

Well, 16 games in and the Pistons are behind where I thought they'd be. Last night's loss to the lakes was really embarrassing. They led most of the game and gave it away in the 4th, partially due to Cheeks matching up the lakes smallball line-up instead of going big, where they'd been dominating the paint all night. Drummond did get into foul trouble early in the 3rd but there was certainly no reason that Cheeks should've kept him on the bench the rest of the way. Dre already had 13 points and 11 rebounds in 16 minutes. You don't sit him for the final 21 minutes of the game because he has 4 fouls.

Beyond that, the Pistons main two problems this year are that they can't guard the perimeter and they can't hit the 3. Last night was a shining example. LA goes 14 for 31 and Detroit goes 1 for 7. That and FT shooting (Detroit shot 52%, and that's with Drummond going 3 of 4 from the line) were why this was a 4-point loss instead of a 10-point win.

I knew it would take a while for them to gel but this is just bad. I thought Chauncey being there might help in the leadership department but he was first playing hurt and out of position and now he's missed the last 9 games due to injury. The team still needs a leader on the court. Jennings reminds me of Nick Van Exel. Sometimes, he's great. Sometimes, he makes you want to throw stuff at the TV.

Looking at Drummond, he is doing some of what I thought he'd do. He's averaging 12.0 and 11.8, while shooting over 60% from the field. He's even started hitting a baby-hook. It's not automatic yet but I'd say that it has been in the 60-70% range. I guess that's fairly automatic. He's been doing that for about 2 weeks now. On the down side, he's only averaging 1.2 blocks a game and went 4 games in a row without a single block. When you are that tall and long and can jump, that number needs to be higher. There are times when he just looks tentative. He needs a little more Ben Wallace in him on the defensive end. Outside of last night, his FT-shooting has been brutal. I'm hoping last night is a sign that he's relaxing there. What's strange (to me) is that he doesn't dribble when he gets on the line. He focuses on the hoop, crouches once and shoots. I think his focus is good but I also think that just doesn't give him much rhythm and might tense him up. His defense is decent. He's getting almost 2 steals a game but at times gets lost and also sometimes lets his man beat him down the floor in transition.

He's still a steal for where the Pistons picked him and I think he has an outside chance at being an All-Star this year. I'm just measuring him up against expectations of him being a dominant, franchise-player.

"Jennings reminds me of Nick Van Exel. Sometimes, he's great. Sometimes, he makes you want to throw stuff at the TV. "

I had Van Exel in a fantasy league one time, I know what you mean...