The Goat Pen

That wife analogy doesn't make sense.

This is your god: You have a mad scientist who creates something horrible that acts exactly like he knows it will act. But he chooses to forget what it is going to do to pretend his creation had free will even though his creation could not act contrary to his prescience. He creates it anyway, and punishes it, shaking his crooked finger at it. It's psychopathic.

God doesn't forget anything. He foreknows what His creatures will do, but He doesn't decide for them what they will do. Like JD says, you keep confusing omniscience and omnipotence.

Moreover, God doesn't pretend anything. His creatures actually can act contrary to His prescience. An omnipotent God can make it so.

It shouldn't be that hard for a guy who could have gone to Havard to at least understand the argument even if you choose not to believe it. God will honor your choice and so will I.

The wife analogy could hold up if we knew more about the doll.

True omnipotence is a philosophical construct that cannot exist.

One can reasonably construct a realm in which a being has virtual omnipotence within a small segment, though. A computer programmer is not an omnipotent entity but yet within his abilities to change the code could be a virtually omnipotent force from the frame of reference within the program. I also disagree that the virtually omnipotent programmer could not program things about which he could not predict the outcome, it can clearly be done by inserting randomness into the code, although this would not mean that the agents within the program were acting on free will, just that the creator could not predict a future state merely by starting at the initial state. The only way to insert "free will" into such a realm would be to insert outside agents over which the programmer would not have omnipotence, the equivalent of users from the outside accessing the program and making decisions outside the total influence of the programmer.

"Oh, let's not get into a grade school paradox: Can your omnipotent god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?

AlabamAlum wrote:That wife analogy doesn't make sense.

This is your god: You have a mad scientist who creates something horrible that acts exactly like he knows it will act. But he chooses to forget what it is going to do to pretend his creation had free will even though his creation could not act contrary to his prescience. He creates it anyway, and punishes it, shaking his crooked finger at it. It's psychopathic.

The Bible says there are things of God that mankind can never comprehend with their limited mental capacity. So, just because we can't wrap our mind around something doesn't mean it is not so or it can't happen.

Can your omnipotent god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

No

A human can make something so heavy that he cannot lift it...

sardis wrote:

AlabamAlum wrote:That wife analogy doesn't make sense.

This is your god: You have a mad scientist who creates something horrible that acts exactly like he knows it will act. But he chooses to forget what it is going to do to pretend his creation had free will even though his creation could not act contrary to his prescience. He creates it anyway, and punishes it, shaking his crooked finger at it. It's psychopathic.

The Bible says there are things of God that mankind can never comprehend with their limited mental capacity. So, just because we can't wrap our mind around something doesn't mean it is not so or it can't happen.

I know. The answer to all contradiction is "WE CANNOT KNOW".

sardis wrote:Can your omnipotent god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

No

Then your god is not "all powerful". There is at least one thing he can't do.

Professor Tiger wrote:God doesn't forget anything. He foreknows what His creatures will do, but He doesn't decide for them what they will do. Like JD says, you keep confusing omniscience and omnipotence.

Moreover, God doesn't pretend anything. His creatures actually can act contrary to His prescience. An omnipotent God can make it so.

It shouldn't be that hard for a guy who could have gone to Havard to at least understand the argument even if you choose not to believe it. God will honor your choice and so will I.

I am not confusing omniscience and omnipotence, rather, I believe to be omnipotent, you have to be omniscient. A subset, if you will.

He foreknows what his creations will do, creates them anyway, and throws them in a lake of fire when they do what he knew they would do before he ever created them. Got it. It's psychopathic.

Mkay.

AlabamAlum wrote:

sardis wrote:Can your omnipotent god make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

No

Then your god is not "all powerful". There is at least one thing he can't do.

No, he wouldn't be all powerful if he couldn't lift it. God is all powerful to make anything, and is all powerful to lift anything he makes. Logically, someone who is all powerful can't overtake themselves. It's a stupid question.

Your god is powerful to make most things. Man can make something so heavy he can't lift it and god can't. So, there is at least one.

Oh, and I agree that it's stupid. VERY stupid.

My God makes a great fried bologna sandwich.

You'll notice that these types of conversations always devolve into this sort of inanity. And yet the canker spreads...

Yes, it does just keep right on spreading despite your best efforts to stop it. Ain't that great?

It is not possible for finite beings to understand (or even relate to) an infinite being.

"Yes, it does just keep right on spreading despite your best efforts to stop it."

Kinda like cancer...

Johnette's Daddy wrote:It is not possible for finite beings to understand (or even relate to) an infinite being.

I'd say we can relate to Him. Hence Christmas. He came here to be related to.

What would Tillich say (WWTS©)? I don't think he would be into the Incarnation or Virgin birth stuff.