Toronto Raptors - We can't be pathetic forever, can we?

[yossarian1234]

Andrea Bargnani might be done for the season now?

Hmm... amnestying looking more and more like an actual option everyday.

[T Dot O Dot]

Just found this from a Q&A with Kenny Smith from a few months ago (obviously some of it doesn't apply now):

Q. You have an underrated player who might become a star this season?

A. I think the Toronto Raptors’ second-unit team has a bunch of guys that can become stars. I think their second unit is better than their first unit. Which is kind of strange. Guys like Ed Davis, Amir Johnson and John Lucas come off the bench, and they’re so different from Andrea Bargnani and the first unit that uses finesse because they are so physical.

Bargnani hasnt started since the Gay trade

[sotola]

re - We were already there before Gay trade. You just didn't know it then.

Nope, I will agree that I thought Bargnani could somehow become useful again but making your statement is like saying the Jays of today were in the same situation when they refused to make boneheaded, short sighted trades with all their young talent before it's developed. Sometimes you have to trust that what you have might take a little longer.... but that it's better than getting pseudo stars. They waited almost 3 years before other teams offered up proven talent (not just now but for the next few years - outside of Dickie) with the talent they harvested.... and they still didn't give up the ace - Aaron Sanchez. Now there are concerns we would need to package Ross/Val to get someone to take on Bargs.... ARGGGG.... I hope it's not even remotely true. I am actually hoping the rumours of us wanting Landry are true since it would lead to a possible sign and trade for Bargs and Landry might fit in well. If they want to make a sign and trade with anyone else... I am done. I can't support that kind of stupidity and impatience.

I wouldn't have done the Davis deal for the reason I said a few times..... he made us different, not better. Now, rather than a growing and developing prospect, we have a guy that should play inside alot more that makes 20M a year (and is ALMOST untradeable). But good enough to prevent us from being bad. I would have rather gambled on the potential upside of a younger big. I was totally content to watch the young kids develop.... and I knew it would take time. Instead, we put our two most promising prospects on the bench for a quarter of a season while we hoped that an unproven player like Gay would lead us to the playoffs. I said it before.... we simply delayed the re-building process. BC could learn alot from Anthopolous.

As for Calderon... loved him personally but that trade, by itself, wasn't an issue of mine. I know his strengths and weaknesses and he wasn't going to make us any better than he already had. He had an expiring contract and you had already invested in Lowry.... I am OK with that..... but I would have preferred a trade where we took on a guy that was overpaid, but for a short term (maybe 2 years) and get a low first round pick or high 2nd round pick. something that is short term that doesn't prevent you from making a BIGGER trade later on. We are simply screwed now unless we want to give up a promising player to make that big trade..... I might as well go to Vegas if that's how I want to run a franchise.

[yossarian1234]

http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=419702

Lowry "neutered" A bit late catching on cause it's been happening almost all season long.

Really, I almost wouldn't mind giving up #4 or #5 or whatever it may be to OKC if it helps get Casey and Colangelo outta here. Both have been disastrous this season. So many things that could've gone wrong has gone wrong and so many things they could've done differently that could've changed the outcome both short-term and long-term.

Still probably won't mean that Raptors will nuke the core and start fresh, go all out for Wiggins, like they should be but one can hope. Chances very slightly increase anyway.

[yossarian1234]

http://www.nba.com/raptors/video/2013/0 ... EY-2433466

Casey talking about how he would be taking Valanciunas out of games if they were playing for the playoffs... (around the middle of the video)

Pretty pathetic for an excuse... Get this clown outta here.

[T Dot O Dot]

I'll be surprised if either BC or Casey are here next year, this season was absolutely horrible

Ross & Val should be way further along by now

[sotola]

Colangelo already did the damage. I said at the start of the season that if they weren't committed to Brian that they had to let him go before he did something stupid like Rudy Gay.

I don't fault Casey at all. He was a defensive minded coach and they made one transaction to improve the defense.... which was Lowry. Except Lowry likes to gamble WAY too much for a PG that his gambles don't often show up when someone is blowing by one of our slow wings who was coming over to make up for his defensive stupidity. If he could play a team system, he could be one of the best defensive PG's in the game EXCEPT he has no discipline which is dangerous for a team without a great front court and weak defensive wings. There is a reason that Lowry is WANTED by other teams BUT always has issues with coaches. Every team HOPES they can change him. He is a wild card at best.

with that said, Casey will be fired as well. The new GM has his right to pick his own coach and a labotomy of this team is required. I hope they amnesty Gay, lose the pick, and sign no one with the intent of competing for Andrew Wiggins next summer. At the very least, the draft next summer is much stronger that a building block can be found. We can spend the year giving time to Val (who will be awesome eventually) and Ross (who hopefully can learn to play defense and develop a basketball IQ) while the team struggles. Ross needs to spend time watching how DeMar's game has evolved. DeMar is finally getting some calls because he refuses to settle for long range jumpers. Ross has exceptional speed and hops so I can't stand watching him settle for jumpers all the time. I don't mind that he sat too much this year because he hasn't shown ANY desire to avoid launching all the time.... and his defense is lax.

If they don't amnesty Gay, then I hope they bring in some overpaid talent in the final year of a contract via trading Gay. I really don't understand why any raps fan has a love affair with a guy that is shooting 41% from the field and 30% from the 3 pt line. The dude should restrict himself to 15 ft and in and he would be a solid player.... .except if he hasn't learned it by now.... he won't.

This team has more flaws then it did before the Gay trade.

[sotola]

Raps record pre Gay trade (16-30) despite a 4-19 start. That means the team was 12-11 in the 23 games prior to the Gay trade. With Rudy Gay, we are 12-17. So, we were playing better roughly .500 ball before the Gay trade and about .400 since. Even with the pitiful 4-19 start, we were .333 vs. .400. The trade made us different, not better. But the Grizz went from 29-15 or roughly 65% to 22-9 (or better than 70%) without Gay. and they shed 20M a season..... addition by subtraction.... the next Raps GM needs to do the same.

[T Dot O Dot]

Raps record pre Gay trade (16-30) despite a 4-19 start. That means the team was 12-11 in the 23 games prior to the Gay trade. With Rudy Gay, we are 12-17. So, we were playing better roughly .500 ball before the Gay trade and about .400 since. Even with the pitiful 4-19 start, we were .333 vs. .400. The trade made us different, not better. But the Grizz went from 29-15 or roughly 65% to 22-9 (or better than 70%) without Gay. and they shed 20M a season..... addition by subtraction.... the next Raps GM needs to do the same.

yeah, let's just completely disregard the 4-19 start

[yossarian1234]

The trade made us different, not better.

It's funny that you get such a kick out of saying that but I've been the one complaining all season about the biggest issue you just now noticed. That we are neither good enough nor bad enough.

We were well on our way previous seasons compiling a mediocre core of players that were starting to come up for extensions and just improved enough to put us in that position during their rookie contracts. Last chance was 2012 draft but we all know how that went.

All the offseason moves Colangelo made after the failed tank job already put us in that position. Ideally, the perfect time to fire him was after the team failed the tank job because after last season ended, he was out for blood. Do anything and everything to save his job. And again we all know how that story went offseason and throughout the season.

Rudy Gay trade doesn't change a thing in that regard. It just means you are more invested in this current core. Heck, he probably gives you shorter window to this core if the team was determined to see it through (only has 2 years after this one with last being player option) and you can still get out of it if you want. He had suitors when Memphis tried trading him and he's showed signs of coming back to career norm at the least recently. Just gotta manage your expectations, not hard especially if you are trying to tank. Don't think you can amnesty Gay though. Bargnani can be amnestied and we should seriously consider it IMO.

It's not realistic and risky but payoff could be big if new GM was willing to risk going through another tank season. We already have a very good piece in Valanciunas who could be one of the top centers, need to add to it. Get rid of Lowry, Gay, DeRozan, and Bargnani as necessary with the focus on tanking next season and obtaining young prospects/picks.

[yossarian1234]

I don't fault Casey at all. He was a defensive minded coach and they made one transaction to improve the defense.... which was Lowry. Except Lowry likes to gamble WAY too much for a PG that his gambles don't often show up when someone is blowing by one of our slow wings who was coming over to make up for his defensive stupidity. If he could play a team system, he could be one of the best defensive PG's in the game EXCEPT he has no discipline which is dangerous for a team without a great front court and weak defensive wings. There is a reason that Lowry is WANTED by other teams BUT always has issues with coaches. Every team HOPES they can change him. He is a wild card at best.

And I suppose that's why he fell in such love with the defensive stalwart that is Calderon? Is that also why he played Bargnani so much WITH Calderon in that horrid 2 PG lineup with no accountability before and after injury?

Did you even read the article? It's talking mainly about the offense.

More like Casey realized he has no offensive system to speak of and he needs someone like Calderon to use as a crutch to run the team and make his offense look half competent AFTER they got Lowry. Saw the opportunity when Lowry got injured and struck. Now he's got Lowry mind-fucked into thinking he's gotta play like Calderon, too, except that's not his game.

[sotola]

Dot...I didn't disregard the 4-19 start...I said we were .333 with a horrendous start Vs. 400 with gay.it's bad either way.....but we played near .500 before the trade for more than a month....actually slightly above. The trade didn't do anything except commit more money for talent that didn't improve us. And we get to pay a 41 per cent shooter 20m for 2 more years. I believe a gm that wasn't desperate would have made a better decision. It's the reason I wanted colangelo fired or extended....to remove desperate manoeuvers. Too late now.


Yoss ...have a nice life... You and I will always see ball differently due to our backgrounds so discussion is pointless. Take care!

[T Dot O Dot]

Rudy Gay over the last 15 games :

FG% .531, 19ppg, 6rpg, 3.2apg, and 1.3spg

[Simitar]

Don't think you can amnesty Gay though. Bargnani can be amnestied and we should seriously consider it IMO.

Correct. You can not amnesty a contract that you traded for.

[sotola]

Rudy Gay over the last 15 games :

FG% .531, 19ppg, 6rpg, 3.2apg, and 1.3spg

I don't even care to check if these stats are correct because I am not sure what is says about Gay.

Team record in last 15 games - 5-10 with with less than half (7 of 15) those games against teams with winning records.... only 3 against a divisional leader, and only 3 against a team likely to be in the top 4 of either conference. (1 - Miami, 2 against the Knicks).... a bad team record and a weak schedule to boot.

Does it say he plays adequate when the teams loses? He doesn't raise the games of other players around him when he plays adequate?

Like I said, if he restricted his game to 15 ft and in, I think he could be valuable..... except he doesn't.... and anytime you pay a guy 20M a year, you hope he makes more than a 5 game win differential (.333 vs. .400 over 82 games)... and that's ignoring the strength of schedule between the first 6 weeks and the rest of the year. he hasn't made this team any better but we are now committed to him for 2 more years and 2 more lottery picks. (which would have been 3 without the Lowry deal).

as for amnestying Bargnani... I am fine with that rather than taking garbage back. The less deadweight the better.

[yossarian1234]

Rudy Gay over the last 15 games :

FG% .531, 19ppg, 6rpg, 3.2apg, and 1.3spg

I don't even care to check if these stats are correct because I am not sure what is says about Gay.

Team record in last 15 games - 5-10

It means Dwyane Casey sacrificed games by playing Jonas Valanciunas 31.4 mpg too much. He avg'd god-awful 63 FG% 14 ppg 7 rpg 1.5 bpg in his last 15 games and hurt the team immensely.

[yossarian1234]

I forgot to mention he shot Dwight Howard-esque 84.7 FT% on 4.8 attempts a game. Awful.

[sotola]

what are you babbling about? what part of have a nice life and don't want to bother talking to ya did ya miss?

i repeat... take care and have a nice life Yoss.

[yossarian1234]

Ok, Sotola-the-great-one. If you don't like it so much or you don't get it, then you can just stop posting/reading/responding, move on. Take a good long look in the mirror, take your own advice, get a life, and again, move on. If you are doing neither, just realize as long as you are here posting for everyone to see, it's fair game.

[Jungle Rat]

Heh. A Canadian NBA squabble. I love The Goat Pen !!!