Toronto Raptors - We can't be pathetic forever, can we?

[yossarian1234]

Somebody needs to ask the question WTF is wrong with Lowry?

Is he still playing hurt? Or was he so mind-fucked by Casey's "coaching" that he's become completely average?

Remembering how he played early in the season to what he is now, he's not the same player.

If Lowry is actually healthy, Colangelo, Casey, and Lowry need to sit down and figure this shit out cause we need him to go back to how he was playing early in the season. Either way, he's too fucking passive now. Not playing like himself.

[sotola]

The difference is that early in the season he was the only guy scoring so he was overly aggressive. Now, DeMar and Gay are around and he doesn't know where he fits. We have too many street ball players now. We are very athletic, and very dumb. Sebastien Telfair will fit in REAL well here.

Amir Johnson is the only guy on this team with a fairly high basketball IQ. He rarely takes outside shots, yet when he does, he shoots pretty efficiently. He defends well, he moves without the ball, and he does what he is good at. The only other guy that does what he is good at is Lucas, and to a lesser extent, DeMar.

As for Bargnani, I really hoped he would continue to develop but he seems more disinterested then he has ever looked in his career. I personally hope Casey has a short leash the rest of the season. "You got 5 minutes to show me you want to play tonight....." And then yank him after 2 or 3 if he goes out there and plays like he currently is.

At least we didn't make a dumb move like Boozer or Gordon today.... but I suspect MLSE wouldn't let Brian pull the trigger before they fire him this off season.

[yossarian1234]

Lowry has been passive even before Gay got here. He did play more like himself in the NY game, which was nice to see.

At this point, I wouldn't mind amnestying Bargnani rather than falsely hoping to get some value for him, if he keeps producing bunch of 0's across the board, just cut him loose. There's still hope that he'll take all this as a wake up call and well.... wake the fuck up but there's a good chance he won't considering how his career has panned out or not panned out. Just cut him and his salary loose.

Of course, considering our history, we'll probably just end up amnestying Kleiza.

[tin mad dog]

Now that we in Pistonland have El Matador, I'm wondering what it was that you guys hated so much about him. Was it his lack of D or something in addition to that?

[T Dot O Dot]

Offensively :

he dominates the ball and will consistently run the pick&roll - pick & pop with the screener and if its a no go he pulls it back out & resets for another pnr/pnp

which worked fine when it was Jose/Bosh & a bunch of scrubby wings, when the bigman switched to Amir and DeMar started balling on the wings he never adjusted..... just kept running the pick & roll with Amir while DeMar kept trying to get open without ever receiving the ball, it became unwatchable

he reminds me of that playground PG who keeps his dribble and keeps yelling for guys to move so he could throw the assist pass for a score, I guess Jose/Monroe make a much better fit

he just never moves the ball to the wing, just as regular ball movement... he never does it

he would have been a horrible compliment to DeMar & Gay

Defensively :

Matador, period

guys get beat in the NBA all the time, it's a given.. but he gets blown by. All a help defender asks is that you only get beat by half step or a quarter of a step so that they can rotate & have a chance, Jose would get beat with the help either never getting there or always taking a foul

[yossarian1234]

To add, I think PG controversy he inevitably creates is also one of the most frustrating aspect.

As a backup, he's excellent because he's probably one of the best and his weaknesses aren't as glaring playing against the other team's bench. He's good enough to start for you if your starter gets injured. The problem is that he's so good as a backup and he has some of the most misleading statlines (like asst to to ratio) that moment your starter shows a weakness, it automatically starts a PG controversy.

But then if you put him in a starter role, all his weaknesses already mentioned comes out and hits you and you realize he's not really good enough to be a starter on a winning team unless you got guys to mask his weaknesses, which we never had. Then you bring a guy to possibly replace him, he goes back to bench... and well, rinse and repeat. Over and over. Every single year. Eventually you get sick and tired of it and you just want him gone.

[sotola]

Now that we in Pistonland have El Matador, I'm wondering what it was that you guys hated so much about him. Was it his lack of D or something in addition to that?

For me, only his defense was horrible. He wasn't bad, he was real bad. BUT, he's a far truer PG than Lowry, Ford, or any of the other players we have had man the point which is what created the "controversies". Lowry plays awesome defense for his position but he's not a true PG.

I can't stand watching this current group of players because it's all street ball, all the time. Jose knows how to run an offense far better than any PG we have, or have had, in the last few years but his defense was exposed because we lacked bigs that could defend outside of Amir. Detroit has those bigs that can make Calderon a great addition for the next couple years for you guys.

We get the priviledge of paying Gay almost 20M per season to play in spurts and shift between great, invisible, and incredibly dumb. Our re-building plan has been shifted ahead a couple years where it will be re-re-building.

[tin mad dog]

Thanks guys. I have mixed emotions about him so far. He seems to be a settling influence on offense and has been hitting over 50% of his 3's but I just don't want to see the Pistons overpay him this summer. I also thought they were pulling the plug just a little too early on Brandon Knight being a PG. Maybe. Maybe not. Knight just had a career high 32 points tonight and Jose chipped in 18 dimes. That said, it was against Washington.

I also haven't really seen Jose with Drummond, since Andre hurt himself right when Jose got here. I'd like to see what chemistry they have and Andre will make up for a lot of El Matador's short-comings on the defensive end.

I guess, for the right price, I wouldn't mind him signing a 3 year deal. Hopefully, during that time, Knight learns and they can transition him back to the point and have Jose as the back-up.

[yossarian1234]

Casey quoted as saying he's going to start Bargnani over Valanciunas to get him going.... So much for accountability... Valanciunas can't even get minutes down the stretch even when he's busting his ass and playing well and Bargnani just gets minutes handed to him even when he's playing like dogshit.

This move reeks of desperation. Either to up Bargnani's trade value or to grab at whatever slim chance they might have at the playoffs. Maybe Casey just doesn't see it with this group and think he might have a better chance if Bargnani somehow magically made a comeback, however slim that chance may be.

Besides the horrible rotations including the disastrous 2-PG lineup, mishandling Lowry (the lotto pick investment) and his role, overplaying the likes of Alan Anderson, refusing to play Valanciunas down the stretch even when he's playing real well, and having no structured offense (which explains why he became so dependent on Calderon and why the offense looks so bad now), I think this is the last straw for me with this guy.

Supposedly, his teammates' patience are running thin with Bargnani, wonder how this recent move will sit with them or more specifically Valanciunas, the most important player to Raptors long-term.

[T Dot O Dot]

casey's going all out with the vets

I'm also convinced he leaves lineups on the floor and forgets to put his starters back in

Aaron Grey ate up about 6 minutes of Val's floor time Friday whiuch should have never happened, I wont even bother with the Allan Anderson/Terrence Ross BS

when BC gets fired, I want a top to bottom collective effort from all phases to develop talent, from the execs to the GM to the coach

[T Dot O Dot]

Just be on the same page

I was listening to an analytics podcast last week, nobody in the league does it right according to the MIT guys

if you decide to be a money ball organization then you have to go all in, the prime example being Memphis

if your GM is moneyballing & making moves based on advanced metrics, +/-'s, lineup efficiencies, PER, adjusted TS%, etc. and Lionel Hollins is setting lineups based on eyeball measurements & defense then you havent analytically done shyt

protocols have got to coincide, Memphis maybe a bad example since they would probably be a top 4 team in the East, but the core jist of the argument is you cant have GM's making decisions based on a specific criteria then have coaches base their lineups on something else, in the end... an analytic approach to pro basketball has never truly been executed in the NBA throughout all levels of operation

I'd like to see us revamp & go in that direction, because it's never been done before, top-to-bottom analytics.... were a shyt franchise anyway and we have nothing to lose.... plus our current GM to coach culture is fragmented

[sotola]

I didn't like the Gay trade the day it was made and I like it less now. Ross and V are essentially buried on the bench becuz a coach and a GM see their jobs disappearing in the off season. We gave up a very talented big in Davis and we get to pay 20M to a pseudo star. Our 2 most promising players don't get the minutes they NEED becuz they make mistakes that they need to learn from.

Then in the off season we get a new coach, a new GM, and the promise of being an "up and coming team".... one that has no cap flexibility, no first round pick, and no hope of signing anyone of value. At least MLB is around the corner.... a team that actually had a plan and stuck to it.

[yossarian1234]

To me, it's a coaching issue as much as the roster issue.

This season is just a total disaster. Starting from last year's failure at the tank job, every step of the way, they've done the opposite of what they should've done. By the time of Gay trade, there were so much screw up already that it didn't make much of a difference either way.

I wish we could hire someone that's bold enough to rip this team apart to shreds (don't care about anyone other than Valanciunas) and go shamelessly all out for Wiggins, public image be damned, and build from scratch. They'll all come crawling back if you are successful. But most likely, we'll be 6-8 seed at best next year (i.e. mediocrity) after proper training camp and tweaking the balance of the roster, miss out on Wiggins, and rebuild in 2-3 years.

[sotola]

It's almost impossible to be so bad to get Wiggins by next year. You would somehow have to trade almost 50M in salaries and get nothing back in return. and that type of strategy is too risky as you still only have a 25% chance of getting the top pick even if you finish with the worst record in the league.... and this team simply ain't bad enough.

BUT, I really don't like the current team and would make anyone available outside of Ross, Johnson, and Valunciunas. Johnson isn't a superstar by any stretch of the imagination but he's solid and has shown continuous improvement every year. Ross just needs time to learn the game.

Now that the Raptors are no longer owned by MLSE, there is definitely a possibility of a legitimate reshaping of the team but it's going to be hard to do next season. Too many teams are trying to shed salary that guys like Bargnani and Gay simply won't be in high demand. The only chance they have of doing something big is if they take on a really bad contract from another team and enter into luxury tax territory in exchange for future first rounders. Other than that, I can't see any market for our higher priced players.

[sotola]

Sign #1 that BC is gone - rumours that the Raps will look to extend Gay in the off season.

Why? because he has the power to extend him now.... but probably not the authority from the brass. this rumour was either from the agent (who heard it from BC) or the complete opposite.... Raptor brass who want BC fired and will state that Brian should have never been engaged in such discussions without their involvement.

Either way, regardless of who made the rumour surface, it's almost a certainty Brian is gone. And I don't think Casey has much of a chance of surviving either. Had he won games despite Brian, he might have had a chance. Perhaps the next GM has ties to him, but I think any reputable GM would want one of his own in charge. Coaches are always the easy scapegoats but I have never seen a team win major championships without major players. You can NEVER fault a coach for the inability to turn Kyle Lowry into Chris Paul, DeMar DeRozan into LBJ, or Bargnani into any huge front court all star. Great coaches can only turn those players into first round playoff exits (maybe 2nd round).

[yossarian1234]

Well, we know Casey tried turn Lowry into a Calderon clone and failed miserably.

Really, I wouldn't be sad to see either of them (Casey and Colangelo) go.

[sotola]

No way did casey try to change lowry....no way. He has allowed his defensive aggressiveness despite huge gambles...which was finally pointed out in a star column last week. Lowry just played the same rather than evolving. Maybe that is on the coach but maybe it's on the player. I like Casey just like I liked Mitchell. They just both got the wrong team for their strengths....and no good coach takes this roster that is proven.....we are rolling the dice again with a new gm and a new coach. Like I said months before, fire colangelo or commit to him before he makes a short sighted move. Now we are where I didn't want to be. Not bad enough to rebuild with a good pick...and not good enough to make any meaningful strides.

[yossarian1234]

We were already there before Gay trade. You just didn't know it then.

As for Lowry, just the way he's playing, looking very passive, and simple stat of shot attempts per game says it all.

He's just not playing like himself and I believe a lot of it has to do with the way he's been mishandled by Casey all season long.

The Star column, I'm not even surprised. Doug Smith has had a vendetta out against Lowry almost the entire season. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Casey subtly starting to throw the blame out there. And Smith is just being used as a pawn.

[T Dot O Dot]

doug backed Jose in every PG controversy we've ever had, that is just residual Jose love

[hedge]

Just found this from a Q&A with Kenny Smith from a few months ago (obviously some of it doesn't apply now):

Q. You have an underrated player who might become a star this season?

A. I think the Toronto Raptors’ second-unit team has a bunch of guys that can become stars. I think their second unit is better than their first unit. Which is kind of strange. Guys like Ed Davis, Amir Johnson and John Lucas come off the bench, and they’re so different from Andrea Bargnani and the first unit that uses finesse because they are so physical.