Toronto Raptors - We can't be pathetic forever, can we?

[yossarian1234]

It was Ginobili playing down the stretch for the most part. Not Neal. Either way, trying to match up to other teams always sound to me like perfect loser's mentality. Yes, there are times when you gotta do it and we aren't good enough to make other teams match up to us but you still only do it to an extent. Certainly not when the 2 PG lineup has failed time and again, it's not just this game and I certaily wasn't talking about just this game as I've displayed my dislike for that lineup more than once, Casey has played that lineup extensively all season except when Lowry got hurt and it's proven to be failure. Time to make adjustments. Otherwise, other teams simply keep playing small on us knowing they'll have a chance to win it with our 2 huge holes on defense even if they are down after 3rd. And we aren't any better on the offense since we just have Calderon pounding the ball for 20 seconds. We get no usual advantages of playing 2 PGs and all the disadvantages.

"As for Bargnani, yes he played horribly but putting Davis back in could have been a HUGE mistake. He played his best basketball game in a Raptor uniform by far.... you don't give him a chance to mess it up by making a mistake down the stretch. You want him coming out of that game with that confidence... you can't risk it. Did his play deserve it? Absolutely. But not bringing him back is all about the long term."

And I'm sure it did huge wonders for his confidence rotting on the bench in the same game where he's played the best ball in a long while, at the same time watching Bargnani play in his place for long stretches going 2-19. I'm sure it does wonders for his psyche when he's getting sporadic minutes at best this season and he's finally playng his best game and he still plays 20 minutes in double OT while this other guy's playing huge minutes going 2-19. I'm sure it did wonders for long term development of all young guys on the team having no accountability game after game. Even if we were to accept this little fantasy about developing Ed Davis, which I doubt the team is doing any more, I don't care who plays, if a guy goes 2-19, you sit his ass down. Accountability. One thing I liked about Casey that he has lost, which makes me wonder if Colangelo's breathing down on his neck or something.

"They need to get his game back to where it was last year and then deal him."

A lot easier said than done. He's not going back to last year's level, at least I see little hope, and even if he does then we run the risk of Colangelo fantasizing once again about what he could be and refusing to deal him. Remember, last offseason, they were talking pretty tough on Bargnani's fate then all of that disappeared when he showed signs of life.

He's done, run his course, you cut your losses and move on cause at this point, I see it as being additon by subtraction. Not necessarily sayng you trade him for sake of trading him but you start looking. HARD. You obviously try your best to sell high but waiting now woud be pointless, other teams aren't stuid, they know what the deal is with Raptors and Bargnani. He's had 7 years here, a few good stretches aren't going to change things much.

[sotola]

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Trade him but dont trade him "for the sake of making a trade". But look "HARD" and "cut your losses".

That's why it's hard to have a discussion with you. He has little value right now that a trade isn't possible unless you want to receive garbage in return. If you do... then don't criticize Colangelo for doing a trade. But you can't have it both ways.

Ed Davis was even quoted as saying the coach made the right decision.... as were the other players... but you seem to lack the ability to understand that not every decision is made in a vacuum. Ed Davis played a phenomenol game and everything could go out the window with a bonehead play. When a guy starts to develop confidence, you want to ride that as long as possible. THEN, when he shows consistency, you give him those minutes at the end of a game to show him you have trust.

It's the same reason you give experienced players the minutes when they aren't performing. TRUST is huge in sports. It was the right decision and a decision that every coach in the NBA would have made. Bargnani won't shoot 2 for 19 ever again. I hate the result and I hate Bargnanni's performance but Casey coached that game like every NBA coach would.... you can't fault him for going with the odds.

[yossarian1234]

It's hard to have a discussion because you can't read. I'm talking about managing expectations. You think we can only get back garbage for Bargnani and I disagree. As long as you manage your expectations, I think he can be traded out of here in a relatively quick manner. He's had 7 years here, GMs are not stupid, they know what he can and cannot do by now that recent hot/cold streak won't significantly alter his value around the league. Maybe it can be used by GMs to get more out of the deal from us but Colangelo's no slouch when it comes to trades as opposed to free agency. He's done it before, pulled off half decent trades when they were seemingly impossible.

"Ed Davis was even quoted as saying the coach made the right decision.... as were the other players... "

And Jack Armstrong has said he would've personally played Ed Davis, what's your point? WTF else do you expect them to say? Unless he wants to risk burning bridges with Casey or wants outta here, he won't be stupid and say shit to the media. If anything, it'll be behind closed doors first unless Casey is starting to lose the team, which isn't the case IMO.

"It's the same reason you give experienced players the minutes when they aren't performing. TRUST is huge in sports. It was the right decision and a decision that every coach in the NBA would have made. Bargnani won't shoot 2 for 19 ever again. I hate the result and I hate Bargnanni's performance but Casey coached that game like every NBA coach would.... you can't fault him for going with the odds."

So now you cannot only predict the future and you can read minds of 30 NBA head coaches, too (BTW D'Antoni clearly disagrees with you)? And you wonder why it's hard to have a discussion? Like I said, take a good look in the mirror.

Trust isn't given, it's earned. Again, accountability (which you yourself have mentioned). Under normal circumstances, your starters/stars are given the benefit of the doubt but Bargnani has done enough this season that he shouldn't be given the benefit of the doubt not when there's another guy at his position playing so much better. It's not like his past years are filled with excellence either. And I wouldn't be so sure about him not having 2-19 performance again. He's shooting career-low and he's had a number of horrible shooting nights already.

[hedge]

[youtube]MBfYQOSSPqc[/youtube]

[Bklyn]

That never gets old.

[sotola]

Have a nice life Yoss. Tell me when you get that front office job in the league... or any leadership position, I would be interested in hearing your view point at that time

Take care

[Bklyn]

My boys are trying to convince me trading Pau for Derozan and Calderon is a good look. I'm about to cut them off...forever. GTFOH.

[T Dot O Dot]

DeRozan would be a scoring beast if he received Lakers officiating

he'd be good for 10 pts/game just from the freethrow trips

[Bklyn]

Dude makes 40 over 4. Too expensive for a cat shooting 44% and barely grabbing any boards at 6'7". If Dwight was the 20 rebs machine he was before he went all Larry Johnson on us, I may have given it a longer look. Instead, I would prefer to get my slashing, athletic wing exposure at a cheaper price.

[T Dot O Dot]

I was sorta half kidding

Pau would be a good addition if we had landed Nash, I'd rather just see Ross & JoVa get their minutes while we take our lumps

saw that we were thinking about signing Pietrus to shore up our 3 position, if that happens I'll officially jump on the Fire BC bandwagon

[sotola]

Pietrus wasn't "shoring up the 3 position". Pietrus was a signing designed to "hold down the fort" until Anderson or Fields returns. He will get the league minimum and frankly his body can't endure a full season so they will simply give him minutes until one of those two guys comes back. I think it's an absolute certainty that he doesn't finish the season in TO. He will either be traded or let go.

the ONLY reason I would be against playing Ross too much is because he is a rookie that often makes too many bad decisions. The problem is if he gets on a hot streak and puts up good numbers at the expense of good play (ie. volume shooter that gets points). I would like to see him just get good minutes as part of a rotation rather than a starter. I said it watching summer league play but I will upgrade the comment now. I said Ross was just as athletic and just as quick as DeMar but with a better stroke. He is MORE athletic and quicker at the same age. DeMar just clearly has a better grasp of the game.

giving minutes to Valanciunas is different though imo. He will gladly grab boards, bang, and set picks. He has shown a tendency to take a few more shots recently but I don't ever think he will try to be a dominant force offensively. I would rather see him get minutes than Johnson at this point.

The guy that I am hoping has finally got it is Davis though. He has played his best week of basketball ever. If he can continue with that type of fire, he will be a guy that can easily be traded for quality. I am not sure what type of market exists for Bargnani so I think we are stuck with him for awhile.

[sotola]

Well, the team is playing better without Bargnani/Lowry so it will be interesting to see what happens when they return. Frankly, I would like to see both come of the bench if the team keeps up this type of play. Apparently there has been friction with their shot selection so it would be a clear message to them when they get back.

MLSE must decide if BC is going to get another year because if they are undecided, the time to cut ties is right now. He can't be given a chance to make another trade or two that may be short sighted. I personally either want to see him fired now...... or not at all this season. I don't want to see 4 trades and then let him go at the end of the year. I personally don't think he should be fired but axing him at the end of the season would severely hamper the search for a legitimate GM. What GM wants to take over a struggling team, perhaps without a first round pick, and a revamped roster of a newly departed GM? We wouldn't be able to hire anyone of value. I could see MLSE do a publicity stunt like asking Phil Jackson to take over the GM duties.

...it has been an absolutely pleasant surprise to finally see Ed Davis play like an NBA player for more than one game. I really hope he keeps it up. Once Ross "gets it", this team might be able to turn a corner. Ross is the most athletic player we have had since a player not to be mentioned. and sadly, we actually missed Alan Anderson.... and that is the sad and pathetic truth.

[yossarian1234]

Calderone playing rather well and another PG controversy looming. Happens almost every frickin' year and you have to give it to Calderone for surviving through all of it.

Anyway, hopefully, this recent hot streak is just used to up his value in a possible trade and not as an excuse to keep him around longer. With Colangelo, I wouldn't be surprised but Raptors have gone through all they can with Calderone and it's just time to part ways.

[Bklyn]

I hope this doesn't make Kupchak or D'Antoni pick up the phone.

[T Dot O Dot]

I always though the Pau to Toronto rumours were a construct of the Canadian media, but it's starting to have legs on the ESPN podcasts too.

[yossarian1234]

I'm surprised D'Antoni is proving to be so inflexible in the way he runs his team. I would've thought he would allow some changes to his system to accomodate the talents of his roster instead of insisting an established player like Gasol adapt to his style and be ineffective in the process.

[Bklyn]

Exactly. D'Antoni is a disaster for LA. Norv Turner in a suit.

[Jungle Rat]

Give it time

[sotola]

I like the stat for d'antoni about his record with and without Steve Nash. A very impressive stat with him, d league status without him.

[Bklyn]

I don't...I'm living it.