Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

[innocentbystander]

A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy.

So you stole that from some dude who wrote a letter to a newspaper in Oklahoma in 1951. Great, you have proven that people have been whining about democracy when their candidate loses an election since at least 1951...

" In our recent piece on the fiscal cliff and slippery slope we opened with two quotes. One was wrongly attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville. Several readers called the error to our attention. The original piece is posted on Cumberland’s website, http://www.cumber.com .

The erroneous section reads “We shall see if Alexis de Tocqueville may be right in his quote, ‘A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.’ ”

I guess we could have written this more accurately by saying, Often wrongly attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville, but more likely sourced to an obscure reference in 1951, this quotation applies to the current debate. “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of, it can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury.”

One writer for whom we have great respect is Barron’s editorial writer Tom Donlan. He wrote:

“Dear David, Your 2d paragraph quote from Tocqueville is true, but not accurately attributed. It’s from a 1951 letter to the editor of the Daily Oklahoman. The letter-writer (falsely) attributed the quote to Alexander Tytler. For more than you’d ever want to know about it, see http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html . Regards, Tom Donlan”

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/11/to ... -an-error/

Hedge, it doesn't matter who's quote it is. What matters is that whoever made that quote is probably right.

No calm down before you give yourself a stroke.

[hedge]

Probably right? This guy was whining 60 years ago about the same thing you are whining about now. Yeah, the past 60 years have been pretty awful for the US economy, and yet that guy thought gloom and doom was just around the corner, just like you do now. Why don't you just go the same route as countless other losers have gone in the past and get you a sandwich board that says "REPENT! The end is near!!" and walk the streets with that. It amounts to the same type of hysterical bullshit that you (and that dude from 60 years ago) are spouting now. It must suck to be you, so fucking miserable and determined to make everybody else miserable, but nobody is listening to you. Just die...

[Professor Tiger]

I don't think there will be an apocalypse. But I do think America will become California and Greece. This election just ensured that.

[bluetick]

Hey. It just hit me. Obama doesn't have to run anymore.

Hope he's not a commie.

[Johnette's Daddy]

I don't think there will be an apocalypse. But I do think America will become California and Greece. This election just ensured that.

The only problem we have in California is all the Goobers who came here from Middle America in the 30s and refused to leave. We had a net loss of non-Hispanic Whites (-5 percent) from 2000 to 2010, but that was more than offset by the influx of New-and-Improved Whites (i.e., Asians, which grew by 32%). FWIW, the losses in non-Hispanic White population weren't significant in Los Angeles, San Diego or San Francisco counties (the "blue" areas), but were HUGE in the rural counties/"red" areas of the state. I guess all of the "Okies" are finally going back home.

The irony in California's budgetary/quality of life issues is that the California Paradise was basically created under a seriies of progressive governors of both parties (Earl Warren, Goodwin Knight, Pat Brown), who created public schools and universities that were the envy of the nation. Then Reagan and the tax revolutionaries (Howard Jarvis, et. al.), came in and undid almost all of it, to the point where when I moved to CA permanently in 1987, the public libraries were only open 3 days per week.

All other arguments aside, it makes zero sense that my mother-in-law in Los Angeles pays less property taxes on her $600,000 house than my mother in Memphis pays on her $200,000 house. Now that the GOP has effectively been destroyed in California, hopefully we can restore sanity to budget and tax policies in the state. GOP obstructionism in the Assembly has resulted in basically NO public policy from the California Legislature in 30 years.

[hedge]

"I don't think there will be an apocalypse. But I do think America will become California and Greece. This election just ensured that."

That is absurd on several levels, the least of which being that if the US becomes Greece, Greece will then be the Sudan. We are going to be on the top of the economic heap for a long, long time, regardless of anything. If our economy collapses, the entire world economy collapses. And nobody wants to see that. Which means steps will be taken to ensure we don't collapse. The last thing China or any other nation, including Iran or any of our other ostensible enemies, wants to see is the US economy collapse. They know it will mean ruin for them, and so it's not going to happen. So basically barring a true economic apocalypse, which you yourself don't foresee, the US is still going to be the top dog...

[Professor Tiger]

So, according to hedge and JD, everything is just peachy in the Sunshine State except some taxes aren't high enough. And if there's anything wrong, it's Governor Reagan's fault. And when simple mathematics works its magic on CA like it already has in Greece and San Bernardino, don't worry. China or some other mythical savior will come in and rescue them/us. Wow.

[hedge]

I didn't say rescue, I said figure out a way to keep us as the alpha consumer. B/c without us, they've got nothing. And the last, oh, 10 times I've been to California, things seemed pretty good. I'll trust my own eyes over the gloom and doom rantings of some internet sourpuss. You've been told that things are dire and you believe it. That's your problem, not mine. My life is great and I foresee it continuing. Your mileage may vary...

[Johnette's Daddy]

So, according to hedge and JD, everything is just peachy in the Sunshine State except some taxes aren't high enough. And if there's anything wrong, it's Governor Reagan's fault. And when simple mathematics works its magic on CA like it already has in Greece and San Bernardino, don't worry. China or some other mythical savior will come in and rescue them/us. Wow.

The Sunshine State is Florida.

San Bernardino is a perfect case study (I actually pastored in a suburb of San Bernardino and sat on a panel at Cal State San Bernardino in 2009 when they first started talking bankruptcy). Their problems were two-fold:

1) in an effort to remain a "Red" county, politicians in most of the cities in San Bernardino County, including the City of San Bernardino, kow-towed to the police and fire fighters unions (in their "Law and Order" meme), even as they ruthlessly crushed pretty much every other public service union in that part of the state. So while everyone cries about the pension burden, no one is talking about the pension/retirement/health benefits that Republican mayors, city councils and county supervisors INCREASED to cops and firefighters even as they eliminated them for teachers, street maintenace workers, etc. The vast majority of San Bernardino's budget woes are due to the expenses of the police and firefighter pensions;

2) the housing bust. San Bernardino was one of the fatest expanding cities in the state - If you were a housing developer, the city gave you whatever you needed, including underwriting the cost of bringing in streets/sewers instead of making developers pay (on the theory that the new residents would cover it with property tax revenue). Of course, when the market turned, there were thousands of units in development that never got completed and tens of thousands of people lost their homes to foreclosure, so instead of increasing the tax base, San Bernardino lost tax base as people lost their houses and moved out of the area. Additionally, the population exofus led to the closure of other businesses and it was like a tub full of water when the plug is pulled - everything went down the drain. The City poured in tens of millions - not just on infrastructure for the housing developers, but also on every big box store/mall developer in the country, subsidizing their moving into the area - and it's all sunk costs now.

Which brings up the other side of the housing bubble fiasco - unplanned/unchecked development. I must admit - in 2005/2006, as a civic leader in SB County, I was pooh-poohing those who were concerned about unfettered development and the cavalier way that the county's long term development plan was being run over roughshod. I still hit the San Bernardino area every 2 or 3 months and it still pains me to drive past developments of 200-300 houses that are mostly empty, or pull in the parking lot of Lowe's or Kohl's and see 10 cars in the lot.

[innocentbystander]

So, according to hedge and JD, everything is just peachy in the Sunshine State except some taxes aren't high enough. And if there's anything wrong, it's Governor Reagan's fault. And when simple mathematics works its magic on CA like it already has in Greece and San Bernardino, don't worry. China or some other mythical savior will come in and rescue them/us. Wow.

George Will called this "...assuming a ladder." That was his term and he is correct. There is a hole and they are digging themselves deeper and deeper and they just assume that a ladder will eventually be there. They can't explain how or when, only that it WILL be there.

[Toemeesleather]

Soooo, the US needs more debt, higher taxes, more fuel grades, Solyndras, and more transfer payments....the Obammerization of the double-digit IQ crowd is complete. Lobotomies for all.

[hedge]

You guys are right, life sucks, things are horrible and only going to get worse. I don't know where my next meal is coming from. The US is a third world country RIGHT NOW, and you better believe that. If you think what we are experiencing right now or in the VERY VERY near future is anything less than total economic apocalypse and Armagaddon, then you are just a liberal idiot with no clue of economic REALITY. Just look around, people are starving in the fucking streets, nobody has a house to live in, you literally CANNOT buy food, goods or services in this country. YOU CAN'T!! Anybody who denies that is a fucking liar and is living in some fantasy world where food and gas and goods and services are still available. But that's all it is, a fantasy. None of that shit exists now, and it will never be possible again, all because of OBAMA and the liberals. It only took 4 years and then his reelection and now this country looks like a scene out of that book The Road, by Cormac McCarthy. In fact, the world in that book was a paradise compared to what we're living in now. And again, anybody who denies any of this or even tries to say it is even SLIGHTLY less extreme than what I have laid out is a fucking liberal liar who doesn't know shit about reality!!! WHHHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

[innocentbystander]

You guys are right, life sucks, things are horrible and only going to get worse. I don't know where my next meal is coming from. The US is a third world country RIGHT NOW, and you better believe that. If you think what we are experiencing right now or in the VERY VERY near future is anything less than total economic apocalypse and Armagaddon, then you are just a liberal idiot with no clue of economic REALITY. Just look around, people are starving in the fucking streets, nobody has a house to live in, you literally CANNOT buy food, goods or services in this country. YOU CAN'T!! Anybody who denies that is a fucking liar and is living in some fantasy world where food and gas and goods and services are still available. But that's all it is, a fantasy. None of that shit exists now, and it will never be possible again, all because of OBAMA and the liberals. It only took 4 years and then his reelection and now this country looks like a scene out of that book The Road, by Cormac McCarthy. In fact, the world in that book was a paradise compared to what we're living in now. And again, anybody who denies any of this or even tries to say it is even SLIGHTLY less extreme than what I have laid out is a fucking liberal liar who doesn't know shit about reality!!! WHHHAHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

Apparently Hedge is a woman. Hedge can't understand the basic concept of cause and effect.

Do us all a favor Hedge, don't vote ever again.

[Professor Tiger]

California has the highest sales tax in the nation.

California has the second highest gas taxes in the nation.

California has the second highest personal income tax in the nation.

California is ranked near the bottom of state rankings for business climate.

Companies and jobs are leaving California by the tens of thousands every year.

California's current unemployment rate is 10.6 percent.

California has a budget deficit of $16 billion.

Despite that massive deficit, California will build a new high speed rail system that will connect LA and SF at slower speed and higher cost than either cars or airplanes, and at a cost of billions to CA taxpayers.

California severely damaged its own agricultural industry - one of the biggest in the US - by diverting water from farming in order to save a 3 inch fish.

Yep. California is doing fine. Just fine.

[hedge]

And yet if you go to California, you see lots and lots of people who appear to be doing very well and seem to be very happy. Somehow it just doesn't square with your doomsday scenario. But it sounds good, at least to a certain type of mind. Oh well, carry on. The end is nigh. Repent!

[Toemeesleather]

The end is nigh


Just for wimmen, negroes, and other mascots.

[innocentbystander]

And yet if you go to California, you see lots and lots of people who appear to be doing very well and seem to be very happy. Somehow it just doesn't square with your doomsday scenario. But it sounds good, at least to a certain type of mind. Oh well, carry on. The end is nigh. Repent!

Doesn't matter how happy people appear. What matters is math. You sound like one of those old baseball scouts that was angry at Billy Bean for making their jobs/livelihoods irrelevant because Bean decided to read a book by Bill James. Basic math says California is fucked right in the ass. How many more California cities have to declare bankruptcy (thus, disqualifying them from ever again floating a bond for anything) for you to buy in on basic math?

[hedge]

I trust my eyes more than your math...

[Jungle Rat]

WE ARE ALL DOOMED BACK TO TV DINNERS!!! IB SAYS SO!!!!!! MOVE TO CALIFORNIA!!!!!

[Toemeesleather]

Open more Post Officesces!!! That's the ticket, I've seen'em, they're great. Jobs, Jobs, Jobs!!!1111