Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

[hedge]

"That is why I am very angry about the GM and Chrysler bailout. All that is, is this President trying to get votes in Michigan by propiong up unfunded pensions at the expense of the taxpayer."

I guess you're also angry at the FDIC giving you free insurance entitling you to up to $250,000 for money you have in the bank in the event that your bank fails. But not angry enough to not take the money...

[Jungle Rat]

I already told you preacher.

[hedge]

"
Look you don't have to tell me if you don't want to, it doesn't matter now. I'm just curious."

Do your friends call you Whiskers?

[innocentbystander]

"That is why I am very angry about the GM and Chrysler bailout. All that is, is this President trying to get votes in Michigan by propiong up unfunded pensions at the expense of the taxpayer."

I guess you're also angry at the FDIC giving you free insurance entitling you to up to $250,000 for money you have in the bank in the event that your bank fails. But not angry enough to not take the money...

Take what money? My money? In the bank? I don't have $250,000 in cash. So I guess you could say I am not taking full advantage of that insurance subsidy. (And really Hedge, the only people who do take full advantage of that government subsidy are the ones who have enough cash to put $250,000 in every single different bank in America.)

The FDIC was created by FDR NOT to be an insurance subsidy for the wealthiest Americans but instead, to motivate people to put their money back in the bank again (and not in a sock in a drawer in their house.) It was created so people didn't have to have any faith in the security of their bank. Their bank could fuck up, and they knew that the government would be there to give them their money. It was created so banks could start lending again in an attempt to end the Depression. It was created in an attempt to save capitalism.

You and I could argue until we are blue in the face as to how effective the FDIC was at saving capitalism. To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure all the data is in on this one yet (not even 80 years later.)

Now, if President Obama and this Congress did away with the FDIC (HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Fat chance this President ever ends a Federal agency) you know what, I might not even have a problem with that. Maybe YOU might have a problem with it, but I am not sure I would. I wouldn't be thrilled about it, but I wouldn't be all that upset either. We all know what would happen, interest rates on bank savings would go up, up, UP! You bet your ass they would. They'd have to do that simply to "bribe" people into keeping their now very unprotected money in the bank. That is the only way people would keep bank savings. So for those of us with some cash to put in a bank, it wouldn't be the end of the world. It might even be "good." But it doesn't matter since we'll have another Civil War before the FDIC disappears.

I'm angry about alot of government subsidies. Am I angry about the FDIC? Well, you know I'm not even sure that agency costs the taxpayers a cent. It might be entirely self funded by banks and lending institutions paying money into the FDIC for the insurance. But I'll tell you what, I might start doing a little research on it.

[hedge]

"I'm angry about alot of government subsidies. Am I angry about the FDIC? "

It's hardly breaking news that most people tend to be less angry about subsidies that benefit them personally....

[innocentbystander]

"I'm angry about alot of government subsidies. Am I angry about the FDIC? "

It's hardly breaking news that most people tend to be less angry about subsidies that benefit them personally....

I'm not even convinced this one (insurance protection paid for by government) is a subsidy Hedge. I understand the point you are making, but I'm not sure if your point is a fact or in dispute. If the FDIC is self-sufficent (not convinced they are, they might be) then math (just basic math) says that the pitifully small amount of cash I have in the bank, the pathetically small interest I am earning on it is my payment for the FDIC. I would be earning MORE money on my money if the bank didn't have to PAY the FDIC to insure my money.

This one might actually be zero-sum.

[Johnette's Daddy]

He probably thinks that because you are an asshole

Who cares? We are talking about someone who hasn't the slightest concept as to who is at fault for the mortgage crisis.

I feel sorry for his Congregation.

If only your opinions were fact based:

Biggest Culprit: The Lenders
Most of the blame should be pointed at the mortgage originators (lenders) for creating these problems. It was the lenders who ultimately lent funds to people with poor credit and a high risk of default. (To learn more about subprime lending, see Subprime Is Often Subpar.)

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07 ... z2CUz34oGl

Investment Banks Worsen the Situation
The increased use of the secondary mortgage market by lenders added to the number of subprime loans lenders could originate. Instead of holding the originated mortgages on their books, lenders were able to simply sell off the mortgages in the secondary market and collect the originating fees. This freed up more capital for even more lending, which increased liquidity even more. The snowball began to build momentum. (For a crash course on the secondary mortgage market, check out Behind The Scenes Of Your Mortgage.)

Read more: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/07 ... z2CUzRI0no

Mozilo left Countrywide last summer after its rescue-sale to Bank of America. A few months later, BofA said it would spend up to $8.7 billion to settle predatory lending charges against Countrywide filed by 11 state attorneys general.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 39,00.html #ixzz2CV03T7wB

Before the financial-sector meltdown, few people had ever heard of credit-default swaps (CDS). They are insurance contracts — or, if you prefer, wagers — that a company will pay its debt. As a founding member of AIG's financial-products unit, Cassano, who ran the group until he stepped down in early 2008, knew them quite well. In good times, AIG's massive CDS-issuance business minted money for the insurer's other companies. But those same contracts turned out to be at the heart of AIG's downfall and subsequent taxpayer rescue. So far, the U.S. government has invested and lent $150 billion to keep AIG afloat.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 21,00.html #ixzz2CV0XfN6H

Homebuilders had plenty to do with the collapse of the housing market, not just by building more homes than the country could stomach, but also by pressuring people who couldn't really afford them to buy in. As CEO of Beazer Homes since 1994, McCarthy has become something of a poster child for the worst builder behaviors. An investigative series that ran in the Charlotte Observer in 2007 highlighted Beazer's aggressive sales tactics, including lying about borrowers' qualifications to help them get loans. The FBI, Department of Housing and Urban Development and IRS are all investigating Beazer. The company has admitted that employees of its mortgage unit violated regulations — like down-payment-assistance rules —at least as far back as 2000. It is cooperating with federal investigators.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 38,00.html #ixzz2CV0kJSSL

The conservative meme/lie has been that the whole crisis was started by the government forcing lenders to make loans to poor black families - and it's been disproven by every single study (particularly since WAY more whites got "liar loans" than any other group).

I will agree that people should realize that buying a house that you cannot afford without a gimmick loan is bad business, but when they're told it is perfectly sound by licensed professionals who are presumably smarter than them and know the nuances/changes in the business, they latch on to it.

It's like all the housewives (and athletes) who got hooked on amphetamines in the early/mid-60s: MDs were prescribing them like aspirin and assuring patients there were no deleterious effects. The pills were a wonder drug that would give you more energy and cause you to lose weight - what woman would turn that down, particularly when the recommendation comes from your highly trained/board certified/trusted doctor?

When the loan guy who's been turning you down for years starts CALLING YOU UP and telling you that you now qualify, you jump at it.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Rat...you don't get "fired" from a conference from officiating dumbass. Officials can get suspended (rare) but they are not "employees" of the conference or the NCAA. We are independent contractors for the most part operating on a year to year contractual basis. I did not renew this year with the MWC for various reasons...the biggest being I wanted to attend all my senior daughters sporting events (she is a very good volleyball and basketball player looking at playing college ball in either)...I have missed a lot over the years from my travels as an official. An opportunity to officiate in the PAC-12 came up shortly after that and I will start that next fall. Travel to the Pac-12 sites is actually easier for me than many of the MWC sites AND I was also a little concerned about the stability of the MWC...not to mention my goal has always been to get to a BCS Conference. I'm sorry you are a convicted felon.

[Jungle Rat]

Im sure your daughters would rather you not be around.

[THE_WIZARD_]

Well at least I don't have to have permission from a court to be around them.

[Jungle Rat]

Did I hurt your feelings again?

[THE_WIZARD_]

Nope. Did you get the ankle monitor off yet?

[Jungle Rat]

Ask your wife.

[THE_WIZARD_]

She is your Probation Officer?

[Jungle Rat]

She does like her handcuffs.

[THE_WIZARD_]

I know it must be hard to find work Rat...being a convict and all...perhaps you could be the Hamburglar at the local Mickey D's there...

[innocentbystander]

If only your opinions were fact based:

Yeah, I don't care that you don't like capitalism or math. My "opinions" are simply repeating what has been standard operating procedure in the real estate industry since there has been a real-estate industry.

Biggest Culprit: The Lenders
Most of the blame should be pointed at the mortgage originators (lenders) for creating these problems. It was the lenders who ultimately lent funds to people with poor credit and a high risk of default.

The problem with this point is that is absolves ALL RESPONSIBILITY from the borrower. The Federal government has been forcing lenders to loan to people (against the lenders wishes) for years. And it has always been the Democratic Party. That is what the Community Re-investment Act is all about, trying force lenders to lend money to people with poor credit so they could get a home. Low and behold they welch on their loans.

Investment Banks Worsen the Situation
The increased use of the secondary mortgage market by lenders added to the number of subprime loans lenders could originate. Instead of holding the originated mortgages on their books, lenders were able to simply sell off the mortgages in the secondary market and collect the originating fees. This freed up more capital for even more lending, which increased liquidity even more. The snowball began to build momentum. (For a crash course on the secondary mortgage market, check out Behind The Scenes Of Your Mortgage.)

So what?

Lenders have been selling their loans on the secondary market for decades. That is how they free up their cash to make more loans. Just raw capitalism. But I can understand why this may annoy you, you hate capitalism.

Mozilo left Countrywide last summer after its rescue-sale to Bank of America. A few months later, BofA said it would spend up to $8.7 billion to settle predatory lending charges against Countrywide filed by 11 state attorneys general.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 39,00.html #ixzz2CV03T7wB

What is predatory lending? Let me guess, I come to your house with a loan contract and a gun and I force you to sign on the dotted line for a loan on a house you can't afford or I take your life? Does that make me a preditory lender?

Or is preditory lending just me being a real good salesman selling you something that maybe you shouldn't be buying but you aren't responsible enough to make that decision on your own so you have Democrats in goverment step in to make you whole?

caveat emptor pal

Before the financial-sector meltdown, few people had ever heard of credit-default swaps (CDS). They are insurance contracts — or, if you prefer, wagers — that a company will pay its debt. As a founding member of AIG's financial-products unit, Cassano, who ran the group until he stepped down in early 2008, knew them quite well. In good times, AIG's massive CDS-issuance business minted money for the insurer's other companies. But those same contracts turned out to be at the heart of AIG's downfall and subsequent taxpayer rescue. So far, the U.S. government has invested and lent $150 billion to keep AIG afloat.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packa ... 21,00.html #ixzz2CV0XfN6H

I didn't want AIG bailed out, fuck 'em if they didn't charge enough in fees on those insurance policies. The government bailed them out because so many civil servant/teacher's pensions were funded/managed by AIG. The Democrats in Congress simply had to do this. They simply couldn't let AIG declare bankruptcy.

Follow the money. Follow the politics.

Homebuilders had plenty to do with the collapse of the housing market, not just by building more homes than the country could stomach, but also by pressuring people who couldn't really afford them to buy in.

Pressuring people who couldn't really afford them to buy in? How do you do that Pastor?

Aparently, there are a lot of people with guns out there. Not only do mortgage brokers have a gun pointed to the head of people in your church (like that lady who wanted to buy a house with her SSI check and her adult children "kicking in") so she got a loan against her will, but homebuilders ALSO have guns forcing people to buy things they don't want. Wow! It is all so clear to me now. Thank you so much Pastor for all these links explaining to me why the borrowers themselves were never responsible for the mess we are in!

The conservative meme/lie has been that the whole crisis was started by the government forcing lenders to make loans to poor black families - and it's been disproven by every single study (particularly since WAY more whites got "liar loans" than any other group).

Yeah, I don't care what YOU THINK the conservative meme/lie is about the whole crisis. I know what happened in this crisis. I know all about the real estate and mortgage industry. I know it because that is my business. (I do software development for a company tied into this industry.)

What is a "liar loan?" Who is to be "blamed" for this? The lender or the liar? And who is the liar, the lender or the borrower? And don't give me another link to anything. YOU TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK AND WHY. I don't want to see any more links from you about this Pastor.

I will agree that people should realize that buying a house that you cannot afford

Stop right there. So far what you are saying makes sense until...

without a gimmick loan is bad business, but when they're told it is perfectly sound by licensed professionals who are presumably smarter than them and know the nuances/changes in the business, they latch on to it.

...you go and fuck up your entire argument with this crap. Licensed professional? What is that? A mortgage broker passes some stupid test that anyone with an IQ of 75 or better could pass, and they are a "professional?" Are you kidding me?

They are sales people, nothing more. And they are paid comission, nothing else. They are paid to SELL. They are NOT paid to NOT SELL to people that they think can't afford a house. They are NOT permitted to make that decisions. That is not how they are compensated Pastor. They are sales people. Just because a law says you need to have a license (which basically makes you part of a "Rent Seeking" scheme) doesn't mean that part of that license means being a mind reader and having the right to veto something that someone else wants.

It's like all the housewives (and athletes) who got hooked on amphetamines in the early/mid-60s: MDs were prescribing them like aspirin and assuring patients there were no deleterious effects. The pills were a wonder drug that would give you more energy and cause you to lose weight - what woman would turn that down, particularly when the recommendation comes from your highly trained/board certified/trusted doctor?

Strawman.

When the loan guy who's been turning you down for years starts CALLING YOU UP and telling you that you now qualify, you jump at it.

Why? Why do you jump at borrowing money to get a loan you can't afford? And why is that person not responsible for their own debts?

The lenders did their jobs. They came to the borrowers with the money. I don't care what color of skin the borrower had. What I care about is that over 3,000,000 borrowers welched. That is all that matters, borrowers welched and we all had to pay to clean up their irresponsible mess. Because for the welchers, of course to them, it is never their fault.

[Jungle Rat]

Rat...you don't get "fired" from a conference from officiating dumbass. Officials can get suspended (rare) but they are not "employees" of the conference or the NCAA. We are independent contractors for the most part operating on a year to year contractual basis. I did not renew this year with the MWC for various reasons...the biggest being I wanted to attend all my senior daughters sporting events (she is a very good volleyball and basketball player looking at playing college ball in either)...I have missed a lot over the years from my travels as an official. An opportunity to officiate in the PAC-12 came up shortly after that and I will start that next fall. Travel to the Pac-12 sites is actually easier for me than many of the MWC sites AND I was also a little concerned about the stability of the MWC...not to mention my goal has always been to get to a BCS Conference. I'm sorry you are a convicted felon.

Ken Rivera fired you.

[THE_WIZARD_]

All I hear is "rubble rubble"

[Jungle Rat]