Toronto Raptors - We can't be pathetic forever, can we?

[Simitar]

woj on Lowry trade:

Rockets and Raptors are working on something "innovative," source says, with lottery protection on 1st round pick returning to Houston

Toronto will send a future first-round pick that source says "is conditional with high upside" for Houston. "Guaranteed lottery pick"

[yossarian1234]

This is getting fucking ridiculous. The full detail hasn't been revealed yet but just based on the rumors, it's as though my worst fears are realized and Colangelo's really starting to mortgage the future to save his job. I see how this can easily turn into a Lamond Murray type move. This is gonna be a much bigger mess once he finally gets fired.

[sotola]

"guaranteed lottery pick".... lol.

the NBA wouldn't allow a trade that forced a team to give up a lottery pick because it's counter balance to fair competition. It means that potentially a) a team MAY have to tank to complete a trade or b) the pick is never transfered. Sorry Sim.... Woj is definitely wrong on that one.

The only possible "high upside" would come from a declining protection (ie. lottery in 2013, top 10 in 2014, top 7 in 2015,.... etc)

No way can you guarantee a team that you will extend them a lottery pick. The premise is severly flawed.

Yoss - you really need to try Yoga or meditation of some sort. This team sucks and we can't even overpay to get a 38 year old Canadian point guard.... do you honestly think someone can turn that mess around?

I can guarantee if BC had his way, he would have blown this team up when Bosh didn't want to sign and would have tried to build through the draft but the bean counters at MLSE wouldn't let that happen. The only alternative is to make risky transactions to get slightly better bit by bit.... because FA isn't going to help us and, as you said, we aren't bad enough to finish high enough to nab a franchise changer. The team won't change until the ownership officially transfers and it's run like a pro franchise and not just an investment. Until then, it will be more of the same regardless of who is GM.

[sotola]

btw, with Lowry gone, and all the decent PG FAs gone, who exactly is the starting PG for Houston next year?

Did they get Forbes in the deal to start?

or are they going to give Lin a ridiculous amount so that the Knicks won't match? In any case, bit of a wierd trade on both sides if TO didn't put much protection on the pick.

[T Dot O Dot]

2013 Houston gets if 4-14
2014 gets if 3-14
2015 gets if 3-14
2016 gets if 2-14
2017 gets if 2-14
2018 NO PROTECTION

[sotola]

hope that's not the case but frankly it's the way trades should be made.... you shouldn't be worried about being crappy. i wish they would get rid of all restrictions on deals and make those picks more/less valuable.

the trade reeks of desparation.... unless they already have a home for Calderon that will net them the starting forward they want.

we can only hope

[yossarian1234]

Sotola: If BC had his way, he would've blown up the team and started over? If my memory serves, I seem to remember it was the owner group and Stefanski that had to hold back BC to stick to the plan of tank last year. And even then they couldn't get it done. I think we were bad enough, Bargnani was injrued for most of the year, we gave away Barbosa for nothing and even DeRozan was missing games, no? Somehow the message got lost between BC, Casey, and the scrubs we signed near the end of the year. Anyhow, trust me, Colangelo was chomping at the bits to make something happen, and things blew up right in his face when he decided to make a go of it. Hence this desperation trade where he's gifting away daft pick with some fucked up protection. We WILL miss this pick. As things stand, we are still a lottery team in my mind so hopefully with next year's draft supposedly weak, we can only hope, we improve but just miss the playoffs. Get that draft pick out of the way ASAP so it doesn't hang over our head for too long and we end up giving it away after Colangelo's fired, lose a piece of building block when we need it the most.

I still have to wonder if we can't just get that offer to Fields taken away. James Johnson surely can't be much worse, if at all, especially as he continues to develop, and he costs so much less. I know James Johnson entered the dog house last year over some dispute with Casey but surely, Casey's professional enough to let that go if the guy can help him on the court.

[yossarian1234]

Raptors pull QO to Bayless. Good now pull the offer sheet to Fields and we'll be good to go.

Raptors and Colangelo have put up with a lot of shit over the years from players like Salmons and teams like Bobcats to build goodwill, it's now time to hit back with some of our own. Worried about reputation? Do people outside Toronto even remember what those scumbags did now? And our and Colangelo's reputation is already all shot to hell with the way offseason's gone and the joke move that was pulled on Fields. Backing off now won't do any more real damage than what's already done.

[sotola]

Yoss - I honestly don't know how you think BC didn't try to tank at the end of the season.... he pulled Bargnani for the season, who by all accounts, had "aggravated" the thigh/groin injury and NEVER told the press what was wrong. He then sat Bayless for the season despite Bayless saying he felt like he could play. He then sat Calderon for the last week and threw in Amir Johnson/James Johnson for the game against the Nets.

Casey did his part by playing those two D league men for 30 minutes a night (I can't even remember their names which shows you how good I thought they were) yet the team still worked harder (due to Casey) then the other teams which prevented the potential top 4 pick.

Unfortunately, like everything Raptors, the team didn't execute the plan.

As for your want to have BC fired.... won't matter. Until the new ownership is in place, this team is flawed for the reasons you mentioned earlier. Not good enough to matter but not bad enough to truly re-build. And the old teacher's pension fund would never have allowed the team to be dismal for two seasons to get the required high picks and talent.

As for Fields, I don't necessarily mind him being signed but if I was BC, I would re-approach the agent and state they are having 2nd thoughts.... at least make them be forced to consider lowering the commitment. If they want to dig their heels in the sand.... I agree, pull the plug and say there was a miscommunication with the agent (since the team is prohibited from making any formal announcements until July 11th).

Still not sure why they would pull the Bayless QO unless they have something else to announce. Why not keep him anyway and try to trade him later? An expiring contract would seem to have value at the deadline... especially for a young PG.

[T Dot O Dot]

not a fan of pulling the bayless QO, hes cheap production and I think he'll be much better after 1 year under the belt in Caseys system, I dont want brand new backups having to learn the system over & over again

[T Dot O Dot]

Bayless QO was rescinded because his cap hold is 7M

when all the chips fall he can probably be resigned for somewhere between 3-4 mill per, assuming he doesnt get a better offer

[T Dot O Dot]

2013 Houston gets if 4-14
2014 gets if 3-14
2015 gets if 3-14
2016 gets if 2-14
2017 gets if 2-14
2018 NO PROTECTION

I should update that if we do not convey the pick to Houston by 2017 then we keep it. According to some sportswriters this is the first ever "mirrored" protection on a pick

i.e. if we make the playoffs next year or pick top2..... we keep the pick

Houston only gets it if we fall in the 3-14 range

[yossarian1234]

Sotola: You don't know how I think BC didn't try to tank at the end of the season because I never said it. I said he did try but the message got lost somewhere somehow maybe between the coach trying too hard or the scrubs trying too hard for their own next contract. Whatever the case, the team fucked up, got out-tanked.

And you and I don't know what BC's thought process is but what I do know is based on his past actions, the man's trigger happy. He even admitted, he found it hard at times to stick to the plan and guys like Stefanski had to hold him back. Again, judging by past actions, I believe him and then some on that. What I don't understand is how you think the team won't be allowed to be dismal for two straight years but that's exactly what this team has been the last two years. How do you think we ended up with 5th pick in 2011?

Also, I already acknowledged it's unrealistic for BC to be fired right at this moment and for the team to be blown up to pieces, not necessarily due to ownership, just the reality of things. They wasted too many years collecting the core they have now, too many painful years that they gotta make do with what they have before rebuilding again. But can't help wanting the guy to be fired right this moment because I also believe it will be more painful years before things can right themselves. The more BC is allowed wreak havoc and make these short-sighted desperation moves, the worse this thing's gonna get for more years before they get better. He's already given away a lotto pick and a chunk of cap space to a player that doesn't deserve it playing a position where we already got quite a few players that's just as good or better than him costing a lot less. I shudder to think what he could do next.

[yossarian1234]

As for Bayless, we can easily get him back if we wanted, only thing we lost is the right to match, something I wouldn't lose any sleep over.

If they decide to keep Calderon and his expiring contract for one more season, however, and save amnesty to use next offseason on Amir Johnson or Kleiza, then we probably let him go. Uzoh or whatever his name is can be 3rd PG.

Either way, no big deal.

[sotola]

I define dismal as having one of the three worst records.... And the raps didn't have that for 2 or more straight years. If they wanted to be dismal, it would mean getting rid of anyone making too much for expiring contracts. That would essentially mean getting rid of anyone other than bargnani and the rookie scale contracts. We have been bad IMO... Not dismal.

The teachers fund does not have time for any lengthy rebuilding. They wouldn't allow multiple losses financially. Bc doesn't want to lose... I am surprised that trait isn't admired. Sticking to a plan for the sake of sticking to a plan is stubborn and just as dangerous, if not more so, then acknowledging the mistake and taking the steps to correct it. Bc will ultimately be fired but I think the problems are rooted in the teams desire to build through trades and free agency. Until TO gets a bonafide stud or two from the draft, it won't happen. If that desire is driven by Bc, rather than Mlse, then firing him will correct it. Knowing a few people that work in the organization.... Patience is not a virtue that they share. I don't believe firing him will solve the problem... Just change the face.

That's why I don't get too upset since that systemic problem needs to be corrected first. The new ownership has already shown that they would gladly lose for a couple years to build a longer term franchise. When Rogers took over the jays, they clearly said they needed to build the minor league system and that free agents won't be considered until they are required to get the team over the hump. That's what the raps need to do as well but that means a largely empty building and the raps don't have 81 home dates a year to make up the shortfall in attendance. The pension fund could not live with that.

I share your frustration and can see your point of view but we disagree on the root cause.

[Bklyn]

If they decide to keep Calderon and his expiring contract for one more season, however, and save amnesty to use next offseason on Amir Johnson or Kleiza, then we probably let him go. Uzoh or whatever his name is can be 3rd PG.

I think this Summer (up until sometime in mid-July, I think) is the latest you can use your Amnesty abilities before you lose it. So, if my understanding of that timeframe is correct, Toronto better start chopping wood now or forever hold their peace.

[T Dot O Dot]

there are provisions on the amnesty, but they are different than the last amnesty clause (which was a one time offer, use it or lose it deal)

this CBA's amnesty is in play for the length of the the current bargaining agreement (5years?) but it can only be used on players who were on your books at the onset of the current CBA

so if we trade Calderon to Houston, they cant amnesty him

and we cant amnesty Landry Fields (though I wish we could)

which is why Toronto is determined to move Jose for caproom, that way they can clear room & still use the amnesty on Amir Johnson/Linas Kleiza

[Bklyn]

Ah, so maybe I saw it referenced in an article regardoing a team that did not have any eligible players remaining for Amnesty.

[sotola]

the more I look at the Lowry deal, the more I think it's probably a decent deal.

When you look at our picks over the history of the draft, the only guys that were very good players were TMac, Damon, VC, and Bosh. Other decent players were Bargnani, and possibly, Valuncias. (correct me if I am missing anyone). All of them went 9 or better and TMac only went that high because high school players were considered high risk then.... not too mention, it took him about 4 years before he became a player. And he bolted when FA was available.

Maybe that means we suck at drafting but let's assume our draft record is average. We just got the 8th pick in the draft this year despite missing our best player for half the season, a back up PG for almost as long, a new coach/system, and our top draft pick was playing on a European team. We bring everyone back, upgrade our PG situation, add a couple rookies and gain a year of experience.

NJ is probably much better but what other lottery team got noticeably better. NO/Washington got better but are still too young to improve too much. Philly (non lottery but 15th pick) has lost Brand and possibly Williams. Houston/Phoenix is far worse. Detroit, Portland, GS, Charlotte, and Sacramento aren't noticeably improved. some playoff teams also have serious question marks. What's Dallas' record with a major injury to Nowitski? (or even moderate injury)? Boston is another year older and has lost Allen.

So, barring a horrendous season, this team is probably going to finish with a pick that is at least 8th or higher. I can only recall one draft pick outside of 8 that became useful for us.... Morris Peterson. I would take Kyle Lowry over any player we have drafted at 8 or higher. TMac went 9th but he would never be available at 9th in the current drafts and with the contracts now reduced a year, we would never get to see that type of player develop and remain in TO now.

It's really not a bad trade when you put facts behind it. The odds of next year's pick being any better than Lowry, based on history, is probably small. The odds of next year's pick being substantially better than Lowry.... even smaller. I think everyone is just scared that "potentially" we miss out on a gem because we don't have that pick... but that can happen anywhere or to any team who miss out on guys like Dennis Rodman, Manu Ginobli, or Ben Wallace.

I don't think it's a great deal but when you put the facts behind it, how valuable is an 8th or 9th pick in reality relative to a guy that has already developed (or at least shown development)? Yes, it could be a major kick in the butt if we finish with the 4th pick and have to hand it over but I think alot of things would have had to go wrong for that to happen.

[Simitar]

the more I look at the Lowry deal, the more I think it's probably a decent deal.

When you look at our picks over the history of the draft, the only guys that were very good players were TMac, Damon, VC, and Bosh. Other decent players were Bargnani, and possibly, Valuncias. (correct me if I am missing anyone).

I'd put Camby in the 'very good' category.