Florida State Seminoles

[It's me Karen]

heh Sweet.

[sardis]

Basically, Simpson Bowles possibly killed a chance for a potentially momental piece of bipartisan legislation to be enacted...which could have addressed fundamental issues we have with taxes and entitlements.

I don't know about i being "momental" or monumental since even if Boehner agreed to a $1 for $1 swap of tax cuts and tax revenue at Obama's $1.2 trillion number, it only saves you $2.4 trillion over 10 years or $240 billion a year. Far, far short of where we need to be.

The left refuses to understand that budget expense cuts need to far outweigh revenue increases in order to balance the budget. The math just doesn't work out for them. Actually, there are a number of intelligent leftists who do realize this, but are now arguing to the public that deficits aren't actually a bad thing. They do this to save their political hide.

[eCat]

yea but the bigger problem is the right doesn't realize that either.

None of them are going to support significant cuts out of fear of not getting re-elected.

A national poll had people supporting the healthcare mandate 60/40.

That is what happens when 50% of America is not paying into the government and have jobs that just keep them treading water.

I'm not saying this as a cliche' or a commentary on America's work ethic but until we address the inequality in the living standards of Americans (and no one gives a shit that our poor have a better living standard than some dirt farmer in a 3rd world shithole) then the federal government is going to always be in a situation where we are paying out large chunks of money to support "income security" for Americans.

That is why I'm so vehemently pro union. A post world war II economy AND a strong union mentality in this country created America's middle class.

Now a strong economy just means the top 15% of Americans prosper while the remainder just stay employed. And that 15% is pumping a ton of money into our government to make sure they don't have to support the remaining 85%. The result is growing deficits regardless of whether the economy grows or not.

[crashcourse]

Problem with Unions is many times the union goes to far in being able to protect the malingering good for nothing incompetant worker. I know three employees who wouldn't last a second anywhere else as an employeee except with the union behind them allowing them to get away with alsolute absurdity. certainlly new jersey and wisconcins very public exposure of what teachers and govt employees do in return for a very healthy salary leaves one scratching their heads. Detroit unions had a huge part in the self destruction of the auto industry and finally is able to get back on its feet after neutering many of the unions. Retirement pension plans are bankrupting many c0mpanies withthe absurdity of union demands crippling many companies long range plans that have now led to default in many cases.

[eCat]

Problem with Unions is many times the union goes to far in being able to protect the malingering good for nothing incompetant worker. I know three employees who wouldn't last a second anywhere else as an employeee except with the union behind them allowing them to get away with alsolute absurdity. certainlly new jersey and wisconcins very public exposure of what teachers and govt employees do in return for a very healthy salary leaves one scratching their heads. Detroit unions had a huge part in the self destruction of the auto industry and finally is able to get back on its feet after neutering many of the unions. Retirement pension plans are bankrupting many c0mpanies withthe absurdity of union demands crippling many companies long range plans that have now led to default in many cases.

I know unions have problems but I'd rather give the worker a voice without the government being pro or con.

I've always felt that if you paid your employees a fair wage, kept them safe and didn't work them to death, you'd never have to deal with a union because if you fired a guy, 5 other competent people would be in line to take his place.

Management has to agree to union demands so if management puts themselves in a position where they have to keep incompetent and/or lazy workers on the payroll, then they are incompetent as well.

And to that point, I didn't buy a Honda because it was the cheapest car or the safest. I bought it because it was the best built and most reliable while having the features I needed. Detroit's destruction came from selling me a shitty car and then conveniently forgetting I was the customer when I asked them to fix it. If Ford and GM made the best cars, stood behind them and made the car buying experience enjoyable for Americans, then what they pay to their employees wouldn't be an issue.

[Bklyn]

Company pension plans are often mismanaged (from an allocation and risk perspective) and historically underfunded...that's what contributed to corporate headaches. The easy path is to lay it at the feet of hourly workers.

Pensions on the public side, however, are a bit more in line with what you are saying. Those were set up poorly and continue to be because its politically expedient to keep it that way, in most cases (ask Hubris in Chief Walker of Wisconsin). With that said, even the local governments have ignored public pensions to dreadful funding levels, then bang on unions for concessions because the pensions are underfunded. In the public space, both governments and unions have fucked Defined Benefit Pension Plans, royally.

[crashcourse]

we sell shitty products because we as a society have gotten lazier

we all want 10 holidays, 35 hr workweeks, 4 weeks vacation 2 weeks sick leave etc etc--its the american dream along with a fat paycheck. unions have been instrumental in getting those things. Perhaps though the production while we are working is the biggest culprit. if my production is the key to my paycheck instead of being paid no matter what my production is with union backup then maybe we produce more and better quality. I think after watching greece and europe meltdown we are finding that out.

[eCat]

we sell shitty products because we as a society have gotten lazier

we all want 10 holidays, 35 hr workweeks, 4 weeks vacation 2 weeks sick leave etc etc--its the american dream along with a fat paycheck. unions have been instrumental in getting those things. Perhaps though the production while we are working is the biggest culprit. if my production is the key to my paycheck instead of being paid no matter what my production is with union backup then maybe we produce more and better quality. I think after watching greece and europe meltdown we are finding that out.

I don't think working 35 versus 60 hours a week has anything to do with production quality. We are the worlds largest manufacturer, but we do it with the least amount of manpower. There isn't a quality issue with the guy who runs the robotic welder that runs 24/7 doing 200 perfect welds an hour.

An automaker or anyone else making the decision to introduce lower quality or unproven materials/designs/parts into the process in order to maximize profits is center to the problem. Often they put the blame back on the high cost of employing American workers but that is an excuse. At some level, just as the consumer buys cheap goods from Wal-Mart made in China, the American manufacturer is no different. That is a quality control problem. The reality is they aren't in the business of building cars, they are in the business of maximizing profits. And the name of the game is selling the car to the individual with the highest margin possible. I don't see the American worker being lazy as the issue. The issue is the decision to maximize all profits to the stockholder at the expense of the product being pushed out the door and what steps they take to make that happen.

And in an effort to further maximize profits they use a cost formula to determine how they will approach dealing with any issues arising from the cost of ownership to the individual after the sale without any regard to goodwill or customer loyalty.

[Bklyn]

we sell shitty products because we as a society have gotten lazier

we all want 10 holidays, 35 hr workweeks, 4 weeks vacation 2 weeks sick leave etc etc--its the american dream along with a fat paycheck. unions have been instrumental in getting those things. Perhaps though the production while we are working is the biggest culprit. if my production is the key to my paycheck instead of being paid no matter what my production is with union backup then maybe we produce more and better quality. I think after watching greece and europe meltdown we are finding that out.

Do you know how we metric against other economies in production per worker? Do you really think Americans make shitty products? Or are you just rolling out broad talking points that work for anti-union slogans?

[Bklyn]

The global economy and the Internet have heightened our sense of interconnectedness and sharpened our awareness that when a business focuses only on enriching investors, it implies that managers view the interests of customers, employees, communities and the fate of the planet as little more than cost trade-offs in a quarter-by-quarter game.

http://www.businessinsider.com/we-need- ... ury-2012-2

[crashcourse]

"Do you know how we metric against other economies in production per worker? Do you really think Americans make shitty products? Or are you just rolling out broad talking points that work for anti-union slogans?"

when I was talking shitty products cars were at the top of my list. I hadn't blamed the manufacturers as much as I blamed unions and the worker in those unions. My dad, two uncles, and multiple other relatives were in the auto industry in nthe 70's and 80's and I watdched that industry collapse in indianapolis and detroit. they were all skilled labor ie electricans mostly for navistar/ford and GM but I used to hear them bitch about the line workers --how much they did/made/for doing a very simple job mostly. The pension plan was unreal too--full medical benefits for your kids for life if you retired GM --just crazy stuff. then of course my personal experience buying those cars and the junk I got.

ecat is probalby right a lot of subquality parts and management failures and no I don't know how we measure up against the rest of the world specifically but I know we are not top 10 per worker like we were in the 50's and 60's.

but you watch countries like greece and you watch countries like china and it seems we are a lot closer to greeces road then chinas road to econoic power vs economic failure

[Bklyn]

What is Greece's GDP?

(it kills me when people try to align our fucked-upness with Greece. Apples and Airplanes)

[Bklyn]

Also, quality of US cars in 1985 or 1995 is totally different than today. Just like the quality of a BMW in 1985 and 1995 is totally different than today. It sounds like you may be taking a historical view of US made cars (of which the Honda Accord is one, funny enough).

[crashcourse]

What is Greece's GDP?

(it kills me when people try to align our fucked-upness with Greece. Apples and Airplanes)

greece/italy/portugal/california heh

I don't only blame it on the US working class but on the non working US class. The line to get declared "disabled"in social security and for vets stretches 2-3 years now. people looked at handouts and shunned them in the 50's and 60's. today we run to them. they can get unemployment for years, foodstamps for years and not have to worry about taxes ever again.

but in order for the less well off to not to pursue these handouts the wealth of this country has to redistribute. creating good jobs and good products amnd decreasing the wealth of banks financial asswipes and CEO's of the same.

[hedge]

The exchange this morning between my son and I:

me (recounting the character from one of my 5-year-old's favorite books "Once Upon a Time...Cool Motorcycle Dude"): Hurry up little dude. I've got to ride you to school.
kid: Cool Motorcycle Dude, where's your motorcycle?
me: It's in the shop, little dude. we're going to take the mini-van.
kid (clearly disillusioned): Oh. That's not cool.

He's right, that's not cool. Almost as uncool as you sharing that stupid ass incident in here...

[eCat]

This should raise the hairs on the back of your neck

"The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and its Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) office is getting an "indefinite delivery" of an "indefinite quantity" of .40 caliber ammunition from defense contractor ATK.

U.S. agents will receive a maximum of 450 million rounds over five years, according to a press release on the deal.

The high performance HST bullets are designed for law enforcement and ATK says they offer "optimum penetration for terminal performance."

This refers to the the bullet's hollow-point tip that passes through barriers and expands for a bigger impact without the rest of the bullet getting warped out of shape: "this bullet holds its jacket in the toughest conditions."

We've also learned that the Department has an open bid for a stockpile of rifle ammo. Listed on the federal business opportunities network, they're looking for up to 175 million rounds of .223 caliber ammo to be exact. The .223 is almost exactly the same round used by NATO forces, the 5.56 x 45mm.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/us-immig ... z1qbexfBYu
"

[Toemeesleather]

Company pension plans are often mismanaged (from an allocation and risk perspective) and historically underfunded...that's what contributed to corporate headaches. The easy path is to lay it at the feet of hourly workers.


Next time you have a free month or two, google union pension fraud

[aTm]

I just bought $20 worth of lottery tickets. I'll see you bastards later, I'm gonna be rich bitches!

[Saint]

you just wasted $19, dork

[eCat]

I"m watching Harlan County USA about the 1973 Brookside Ky coal miner striked. Goddamn that was some hard shit going on, and it pales to what they did in the 20's and 30's.