Puterbac News Network and Political Discussion Thread

[bluetick]

I just wish The Media would quit it with the heatwave stories. The more news about the heat, the hotter it gets (and I got the numbers to back me up).

Efing Media isn't going to be happy until we're all dead and/or socialist. And gun-less.

[Professor Tiger]

Nice try, but the govt hasn't taken anything out of the private sector.

They have been auctioning off trillions in t-bills on the world market. So all those Chinese, Arab and Indian investors - instead of investing their capital in factories, high tech research, energy exploration, i.e. things that are productive and create real jobs - are instead buying t-bills. That money has, in turn, gone into saving the jobs of unionized state/local government workers for a year, rail systems that will be slower and more expensive than airplanes, and "green energy jobs" which will never exist without a federal subsidy.

The government's absorption of world capital is definitely taking money out of the private sector.

However, those Chinese, Arab and Indian investors are beginning to agree with S&P. They can do the math and realize that US t-bills are a risky investment. They are coming to realize that, if we don't default entirely, we will continue to inflate and pay them back with monopoly money. When they quit buying our treasuries, that will be our Greece moment.

[Owlman]

However, those Chinese, Arab and Indian investors are beginning to agree with S&P. They can do the math and realize that US t-bills are a risky investment. They are coming to realize that, if we don't default entirely, we will continue to inflate and pay them back with monopoly money. When they quit buying our treasuries, that will be our Greece moment.

They are?????

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-market ... 5.html?x=0

Prices for U.S. government debt rose -- even after S&P essentially said they were a riskier investment than the debt of some other major world economies -- because Treasurys are still seen as one of the world's few safe havens. Prices rise as demand increases.

[Owlman]

Crude oil, natural gas and other commodities fell on worries that a weaker global economy will mean less demand. Oil fell $3.47 to $83.41 per barrel.


[youtube]1loyjm4SOa0[/youtube]

[Owlman]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/AIG-sues- ... 0.html?x=0

AIG sues BofA for $10 billion alleging "massive fraud"

[Professor Tiger]

Prices for U.S. government debt rose -- even after S&P essentially said they were a riskier investment than the debt of some other major world economies -- because Treasurys are still seen as one of the world's few safe havens. Prices rise as demand increases.

Of course the price of US treasuries rose. Duh! The Chinese, Arab and Indian investors are collectively saying to the US: "We're starting to think your t-bills are crap. If you want us to pay for them, you're going to have to pay us more (i.e. higher rates of return) to compensate for the steadily rising risk we are taking by buying them at all." I bet the yields on Greek sovereign debt bonds have gone way up too, and for exactly the same reason. But that is, most assuredly, not a signal of long-term trust. It's a sign of distrust.

I also see the Dow is down 586 with five minutes to go in the trading day. Wait a minute; I thought that the Democrats' whole justification for raising the debt ceiling was to prevent a financial market meltdown. Well, we passed the debt ceiling, just like they wanted, and it looks like the financial market meltdown is happening anyway.

The increased debt ceiling is as effective as the stimulus, which was supposed to cap unemployment at 8%. The stimulus and raised debt ceiling are the twin towers of liberal economic folly.

[Owlman]

Of course the price of US treasuries rose. Duh! The Chinese, Arab and Indian investors are collectively saying to the US: "We're starting to think your t-bills are crap. If you want us to pay for them, you're going to have to pay us more (i.e. higher rates of return) to compensate for the steadily rising risk we are taking by buying them at all." I

Oh, so that's what happened to U.S. treasuries today. Are you saying the price went up and the yield went up as well?

[Owlman]

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Treasury- ... 8.html?x=0

In Monday afternoon trading, the price of the 10-year Treasury note is up $1.81 for every $100 invested. Its yield sank to 2.36 percent from 2.57 percent late Friday.

[TheBigMook]

Let him go, he's on a roll.

[Professor Tiger]

No, Owlman, the Chinese/Arab/Indian investor's woke up this morning and said, "The American government is a fabulously trustworthy place to lock away our money for up to 30 years. It was already a bargain last Friday, and to show how much I trust Uncle Sam, I'm going to demand even more back from him in return for his borrowing our money to help him pay for his foolish domestic boondoggles.

If I ever were to doubt Uncle Sam's ability to pay me back, I would demand LESS money in return for my investment in his junk bonds. That's what the economically savvy Owlman says, anyway."

[bluetick]

Funny thing - the only big financial news nationally from the last few weeks was the jobs report that was unexpectedly good - 117,000 new jobs added in July instead of 80,000, lowering the unemployment number from 9.2 to 9.1. Under normal circumstances that would have led to a healthy bump in the DOW and Nasdaq.

Of course the debt ceiling circular firing squad overshadowed that. A tea-total self inflicted wound, that one. And now S&P has tossed in a few grenades that we can all fall on. What an incredibly unnecessary bunch of bs.

[Owlman]

No, Owlman, the Chinese/Arab/Indian investor's woke up this morning and said, "The American government is a fabulously trustworthy place to lock away our money for up to 30 years. It was already a bargain last Friday, and to show how much I trust Uncle Sam, I'm going to demand even more back from him in return for his borrowing our money to help him pay for his foolish domestic boondoggles.

If I ever were to doubt Uncle Sam's ability to pay me back, I would demand LESS money in return for my investment in his junk bonds. That's what the economically savvy Owlman says, anyway."

You're the one that pointed to the stock market and what happened today. Now those facts don't fit your assertions, you just state your opinion anyway. If the facts don't fit, ignore and repeat the same thing over and over again.

[Big Orange Junky]

Yep to think if the liberals would have just allowed true spending cuts then we may have avoided the downgrade.

Owl, I would absolutely positively NOT support your unfair tax structure.

The same rate for all, period. If that's 20% then that's what it is if it's 25% so be it but no difference based on income. That's just horsecrap.

I also wouldn't tax corporations, and if I did it surely woudn't be gross, it would be profit (but I still wouldn't because corporations don't pay taxes, only people do so that would just be a hidden tax on everyone).

[AlabamAlum]

So, a grandma living on $8,000 a year should pay $1,600 in taxes because everyone has to pay?


Most flat taxers have proposed zero tax until a certain wage level ($20K/year or whatever).

[aTm]

Taxing based on income is moronic. Especially when its very fucking simple to calculate tax on wages/salary and very hard to calculate it on earnings for rich assholes who can afford the best tax lawyers.

[aTm]

Well Miss Holey Stocklings, I know you earned 15k this year and have 5 kids to feed since your husband died, but this is all straight forward and fair. We just apply the formula! Lets see....the fair rate at 15%... multiplied by 15k... means you owe $2,250, and you havent paid yet...so we'll tack on these fees...

Oh, hello Mr. Fancy Pants! Oh dear, oh dear, you took another loss this year? My goodness, times are tough, how is the old Benz running? Ah, you traded up! How nice! Well, you dont owe anything this year, and we'll just forward your losses to apply to next year! Good luck, sir!

[Big Orange Junky]

Actually a flat tax is the most fair way to go.

15% is 15%, whether the person earned 30 grand or 300 grand they pay the same percentage.

That's the only fair way to go really.

Nobody should "pay more" because they happen to be productive, at least not as a percentage. They will pay more in dollar amounts as they increase their earnings.

I could go for a bottom cutoff I guess but that would be about as far as I would be willing to go.

There is absolutely no reason for anyone to pay more as a percentage of their income than any other American. Whether that person is myself or Bill Gates.

[aTm]

Bill Gates became a multi-billionaire on paper. He wasn't paying any tax on that money, beyond whatever salary he paid himself when Microsoft spent all those years not paying dividends.

[aTm]

Wealth does not equal earnings unless you are comparing poor people who only earn wages and salary against other poors. A 15% flat tax efficiently and ruthlessly taxes the poor side of the wealth spectrum at the full 15% while the rich side will be able to stash their wealth in ways that don't "earn" them taxable income.

[AlabamAlum]

Correct.

Although, to be fair, the wealthy do a pretty good job of hiding or sheltering incloime in this system, but the assumption that the flat tax would fix that is wrong.

A VAT would work better than a flat tax, IMO. People would still find ways around it.

Last time in Aberdeen, my uncle had me buy him a big flatscreen at the local appliance store. Since I'm a US citizen, I was able to get the VAT refunded to me. Which I handed to him at the airport.